Jopwell (YC S15) Is Building the Missing “Pipeline” of Diverse Candidates

http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/15/jopwell/

by frankdenbow • 11 years ago

94 67 11 years ago

techcrunch.com

ipsin• 11 years ago

"Job seekers, who must have a college degree in any discipline..."

I think it's a mistake to ignore candidates with a proven track record but no college degree.

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

I'm Ryan, co-founder of Jopwell. There are many different points along the spectrum where problems relating to diversity can be tackled; we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.

jsprogrammer• 11 years ago

This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.

I think Ipsin was saying that some people without a college degree do meet the interests and needs of many companies. I'm not sure who your partner companies are or what your target market is though.

d4rkph1b3r• 11 years ago

I would love to hear what company you think someone would want to work for that absolutely excludes anyone without a college degree?

toomuchtodo2• 11 years ago

we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're excluding candidates without a degree, your solution isn't a solution at all.

Stripping candidates names from resumes would accomplish the goal you're attempting to solve without creating the massive blindspot of candidates without a degree.

justizin3• 11 years ago

This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.

Hiya Ryan!

I applaud what you're doing, but I join others in my concern that you are narrowing focus.

I don't want to work in an office surrounded by only other straight white males, but as a person not fortunate enough to have a college degree, I really don't enjoy working in an environment where _everyone_ is a college graduate, feel it can be toxic, creates institutional bias against unconventional thinking, and is overall IMNSHO boring.

That said, you have to pick what problem to tackle, and if workplaces become more diverse overall, esp in leadership positions, I think that's a great move in the right direction. There may be a bias in favor of people that demographically resemble me and haven't gone to college, because we had access to family members and other people with engineering backgrounds, even if that leg-up doesn't guarantee a slam-dunk.

leereeves3• 11 years ago

Do college educated people of color with tech skills currently have trouble finding work in the industry, or is the problem that there simply aren't enough people like that?

You may be addressing the wrong problem.

icelancer• 11 years ago

Have you considered that excluding non-graduates is inherently non-diverse from a racial perspective [0], much less an egalitarian one?

[0] http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-coll...

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

To bump my response to this (it's at risk of being lost in the chain below): To clarify, I'm suggesting that we need to walk before we can run. I absolutely agree that many individuals without a degree far surpass companies' hiring needs, but our initial focus is entirely on providing a diverse pipeline of talented candidates who fit the criteria our partners are currently seeking. As we continue to demonstrate this value, I HOPE we find ourselves in a position to influence the traditional pipelines that companies turn to for talent.

alexnking• 11 years ago

Agreed. This feels like adding an additional hurdle that non-minority hires would not face (most generic recruiting sites I've seen don't require degrees).

pbraswell3• 11 years ago

Porter Braswell, CEO of Jopwell here. Really excited to be connecting minorities with job opportunities in tech and other industries. Lots of work to be done but our team is eager to help make the workforce a bit more colorful! Happy to be a part of this discussion.

daniel_levine• 11 years ago

Good luck Porter, been awhile since Trumbull. Glad to see you're out here

pbraswell3• 11 years ago

Appreciate it!

apoverton• 11 years ago

Good luck guys! Think this is a step in the right direction.

ivankirigin2• 11 years ago

Great to see more on the pipeline side of things!

What would you recommend for companies interested in doing better here?

If there is institutional bias (and I think there is, if not overt), then under represented people on average will have less experience. I've been thinking companies focusing more on training and development could help offset this issue. My startup is really small and lacks resources to develop something comprehensive here. Any thoughts or recommendations?

edit: let me give an example. I'm using Hired.com for recruiting. I've noticed some people have a coding bootcamp + internship vs others that have CS degrees and more experience. The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups. I haven't done a comprehensive study, but it seems like there are more women in the former.

justizin3• 11 years ago

The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups.

Are you sure? As a non-CS degree holding senior engineer who constantly has to tell recent grads very basic things that I taught myself in high school, I think this is the biggest and most problematic institutional bias.

It's essentially cutting people out of the industry at like 14 years old - an age at which it was explained to me that I wouldn't be able to afford college and would otherwise not get in without nearly perfect grades in classes that didn't stimulate me at all.

tgauda• 11 years ago

This needs to exist. Congrats on building something awesome!

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

Thank you!

Mz3• 11 years ago

I was surprised at how good it sounds. These things are usually handled so very badly. But I am curious why women were not included in this effort as an underrepresented group in tech. Are there plans to do so at some point? Or is the intent to only address racial issues?

Thanks.

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

Great questions! While there are certainly other underrepresented groups - including women, the LGBTQ community, veterans, individuals with disabilities, and other racial groups - we set out to be "everything for someone" rather than risk being "something for everyone." We hope that Jopwell's success with our initial target demographic allows us to expand the range of individuals whose lives we impact.

As an added note, Jopwell doesn't just serve the tech community. We are focused on connecting individuals with opportunities in a wide range of industries, including tech, healthcare, consulting, finance, and not-for-profits.

codezero• 11 years ago

This is not an answer to your question, nor is this site the same as Jopwell, but it may still be interesting if you haven't seen it before: https://fairygodboss.com/

It's basically a company review site for women. While this won't help women get matched with a new role, it may help them avoid toxic work environments, or target positive ones.

iandanforth• 11 years ago

Forgive my ignorance but is it legal to hire someone and say that a major component of their hiring was their race? I'm guessing it must be OK for some predifined races?

pbraswell3• 11 years ago

Our partner companies are not hiring Jopwell users because of their race, they are using Jopwell as a tool to ensure they have a diverse pool of candidates applying for their roles. They then hire the best candidate, regardless of race, for the job.

jerf5• 11 years ago

When that logic is run in the other direction, the courts smack it down. "We weren't discriminating against race, we just happened to use $CRITERION that effectively discriminated against race." Does it really change its force if it's discriminating "for"?

To concretize the discussion, I suppose I'll stick to the legal aspects here, in that, yes, let's not mince words or pretend otherwise, there is certainly a direction of "discrimination" that courts will prefer, but are you really sure you can be this blatant about it, legally? It is possible to get in trouble for going too far, for instance see http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirm... . (Which I freely acknowledge is not directly related to this business model, but it does show that the courts do have some degree of limits on "affirmative action".)

Edit: To further clarify, I assume you have considered this question, and I'm curious what the answer you already have must be. I am not thinking this is a new thought to you.

dragonwriter6• 11 years ago

Forgive my ignorance but is it legal to hire someone and say that a major component of their hiring was their race?

No, and so using Jopwell as a sole funnel would probably be quite illegal.

Using it as a source of additional candidates to compensate from lack of diversity in one's existing funnel, however, would probably not only not be illegal, but probably mitigate the risk of suit based on adverse impact due to the manner in which the existing funnel was created.

NateLawson2• 11 years ago

This is exactly right. There is no such company which is rushing to drop their Stanford recruiting program, friends and family referral bonus, or other sources solely for Jopwell. This is not a problem that will ever exist in our universe.

dmitrygr• 11 years ago

As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane! This really does feel like discrimination, just in the opposite direction.

Is it some sort of a conspiracy here to not discuss this that I am not aware of? Or is discrimination towards some OK but not towards others?

dragonwriter6• 11 years ago

As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane!

It would be insane in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race hadn't been a thing for so long that it substantially distorts all aspects of society.

However, the place where its actually developed and focused isn't that kind of place, so that doesn't really matter.

akc• 11 years ago

that "place" you refer to - are you speaking about your early days in Russia, or the US? Because I assure you discrimination is alive and well in both places.

dang2• 11 years ago

I don't believe you were deliberately trolling, but on reflection, I do think your comments in this thread have broken the HN guidelines [1], which say:

"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."

You didn't engage with anything specific about this story. You only raised the most automatic and generic and obvious of objections, in an outraged tone. That's precisely what that guideline asks you not do to.

Moreover, you got some really thoughtful replies that (agree or not) were clearly trying to answer you meaningfully. But you responded with more automatic dismissals (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9893128). That is not substantive discussion. I'm impressed (edit: and grateful!) that frankdenbow and the other users replying to you stayed as respectful and thoughtful as they did.

HN is a public forum; the public is divided; we can't expect everyone to agree. We can, though, expect you to actually engage with others, with the real problems they're working on or facing, and ask questions and listen to replies in good faith. Respectful disagreement on a divisive topic is hard enough when people do meet this standard; it's impossible when they don't. One violation can blow an entire crater in the discussion. Please don't do that again.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gesman• 11 years ago

Are there any russians among employees? :)

k0• 11 years ago

I get it now! See for yourself at the Founder's LinkedIn pages [or the Jopwell Team page]. You have two outstanding young men with some great work experience but whom also have extraordinarily white-sounding names yet are not white. My question about just using pictures is now proven to be a potential solution. I'm sure some code that infers the race of a candidate from a digital photo could be used and may be a potential patent.

Edit: Adding that self-identifying race on a candidate's profile may not be optimal when US anti-discrimination hiring laws are in effect. However, a picture is worth a thousand words. If you are shallow enough to hire from a pool that excludes one or more races, then you are also shallow enough to hire a candidate based on their photograph. I understand that some companies are not diverse enough, but there are root causes that Jopwell is not addressing. One cause is America has deep Anglo-Saxon and European roots hence the majority of the population is/was White; the opposite issue may be present in Africa, India, or China where 'whites' are minorities. However, choosing candidates from a racially-segregated pool for the appearance of being diverse seems so shallow. Allowing all candidates, regardless of race, and simply including a photo of a candidate absolves Jopwell on several fronts.

I'm fine with the downvotes, even if I do not understand why. These are valid points.

gfodor• 11 years ago

Serious question: is this legal?

potlick• 11 years ago

Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0hBfx5ccY

orthoganol• 11 years ago

Isn't there a fear that candidates will be worried about being thought of as the "Jopwell guy"? Seems inevitable if Jopwell is thought of as the place you go to add minorities for your team, e.g. some individuals will think of them as affirmative action candidates, and the candidates themselves will be afraid of being thought that way.

I suppose it's not an issue if the strategy is to be an invisible intermediary, so people wouldn't where they came from.

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

Great question - thanks for posing it! Just how someone identified via LinkedIn, indeed, or Monster would not be branded as a "Company-x guy", Jopwell candidates have not been labeled negatively as a result of being on the platform. Jopwell is simply the resource through which these individuals are finding out about opportunities they might have otherwise been unaware of. As a reminder, these individuals are not hired BECAUSE they are on Jopwell - Jopwell is simply a tool that helps companies ensure that they are considering an applicant pool of individuals from varied backgrounds. From a user perspective, Jopwell helps individuals learn about companies and jobs and hopefully (if they are the BEST person for the job) attain employment. Hope that helps to clarify!

forthwall• 11 years ago

It might better to clarify what type of minority your service is looking for on the first page of your sign-up rather than your second - especially since you put in your contact details in the first (and don't really know if that information is already submitted).

Was going to ask about legality too, but it seems like it was already answered.

+Nice job guys, I like the idea.

ryanswilliams9• 11 years ago

Appreciate the feedback! We'll definitely consider this - we don't want any confusion about who our site currently serves. Tks for the input.

bradsiegler• 11 years ago

People will exhaust themselves trying to scrape together thin, crap arguments attempting to minimize what you're doing. Just keep pushing. I love the mission and can't wait to see you grow!

Jopwell (YC S15) Is Building the Missing “Pipeline” of Diverse Candidates

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