Ask HN: How do you get people to pay you back? Tools?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9785083

by ljoshua • 11 years ago

11 45 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Example scenario: Recently a bunch of us at the office were all craving pizza for lunch, and so we decided to put in an order for about 12 or so people, coming to ~$130 total. I organized and paid the bill, and it was delicious.

However, trying to get people to pay back their agreed portion was tough. I’m not a penny-hound so even though there were a few people who didn’t actually pay up I’m alright, but I could imagine in other scenarios where you really would want to make sure everyone contributed. In the end, it was a mix of a few cash payments, some PayPal, and a failed Google Wallet attempt.

Are there tools that you use to split out bills amongst a larger group of people (say 5 or more), that allows people to get you paid back easily? I could easily envision a little web app that would make this exceedingly easy, but was hoping to find something already in existence first.

vinnyglennon• 11 years ago

https://www.scred.com/register/?group=sharing

dangrossman• 11 years ago

People keep building that app, using it to acquire customers, then pivoting into a generic payment platform because payment processing is a volume business and consumers splitting checks is such a tiny percentage of the market. It's the founding story for PayPal (originally for PalmPilot!), WePay, etc.

If you really want to make sure everyone contributes, try Tilt maybe? I think the idea is that the pool can't be used until everyone pays in. https://www.tilt.com/

For mobile payments, Venmo perhaps? https://venmo.com/ Though I would probably just use PayPal myself.

sp332• 11 years ago

Venmo is notoriously insecure. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/safety_net/2015/02/...

kentf• 11 years ago

Biased as I work at Tilt, but I can tell you that we are PCI level 1 and take security really seriously.

Use this code: hello20 and you can get $20 off your first tilt :) Much love HN.

jaymoorthi• 11 years ago

Check out splitwise: https://www.splitwise.com/

mminer• 11 years ago

Splitwise works especially well for groups that share bills regularly, e.g. roommates. Recurring bills and email reminders are especially helpful to make the monthly shakedown unnecessary. My favourite feature is the option to simplify debts, minimizing the number of payments that need to be made between people to settle up (their example: if you owe Anna $10 and Anna owes Bob $10, Splitwise tells you to pay Bob $10 directly so that there's only one transaction instead of two).

It's a great example of a "small" piece of software that does one thing and does it well.

rayalez• 11 years ago

I would say that the best tools to get people to pay you back are crowbar and pliers.

Seriously though:

https://www.splitwise.com

DanBC• 11 years ago

Cash up front, especially for previous non-payers.

leesalminen• 11 years ago

We use square cash extensively at the office. No fees!

jhgg• 11 years ago

Likewise. Square Cash is great. Especially if you're cool with splitting the bill equally, you can send the same cash request to a group of people in seconds.

facepalm• 11 years ago

Maybe huge post it notes on the coffee machine as a reminder?

tmnt0074• 11 years ago

Shameless people will make a vine selfie to point out the passive-aggressive loser out some coin.

lostbit• 11 years ago

I used http://tricount.com/ It can be web only or a mobile app.

I remember looking for the word "iou", meaning "I owe you" and found some apps regarding splitting the bills, but I ended up with Tricount.

codezero2• 11 years ago

Funny anecdote. At a former company, about 20 of us went out to Dim Sum, expecting to split the bill.

One of my co-workers was from Hong Kong and mentioned that they did this once or twice a week. So being a clueless American, I asked how they handled splitting the bill.

I guess I wasn't too surprised at his response, but he seemed completely puzzled as to why this was an issue. He said they each paid their share, and that was that.

I shared how this is a constant problem for diverse groups in the US, and he basically understood, but thought it was really funny.

My theory as to why this is an issue is that people all have their own preferences around food. What to eat, how much to eat, whether they'll also drink, and how much to tip.

We feel very entitled to all of those. Some people, when offered an all-you-can-eat service, will eat an insane amount of food, while others will eat the same that they would if it were plate-by-plate.

Some will drink if the alcohol is cheap, others will drink twice as much if it's expensive.

Some want just a salad, while others want salad, a main course, and dessert.

Welp, this causes a huge disparity because the bill comes in and either you need to go line by line to get the total, then impose a line by line tip percentage for each person, and, surprise surprise, nobody has cash.

So, how can all this be solved?

Here are a few solutions.

1) If it's for the office, have the company pay for it. This is a really reasonable request. Expense it. It removes any question about who owes what, and removes the sort of grating annoyance of collecting money from individuals. Doing that again and again will wear down a team.

2) Get everyone on board with the same money transfer app, and collect payment immediately.

Use Venmo, or Square Cash, or what ever else is out there. Instant payments make this all go away. If you want to get the app adopted fast, have your company pitch in and send $5 or $10 to each person as an incentive to join up on the same app. This will pay dividends down the road.

3) If all else fails, make it clear up front that the price is going to be split equally, and keep a public log of who has and has not paid – send out an email reminder to the team with the names and who owes what. This may seem extreme, but if for some reason you're unable or unwilling to do 1) or 2) this will make things clear up real fast. If you are concerned that someone on the team can't afford to pay, obviously, don't hassle them, and try to amortize the cost by spreading it over the rest of the team as discretely as you can, or ask a few people who are sympathetic to pitch in offline.

For tools: At my company we use Abacus for expenses, and Venmo for cash transfer.

Amongst friends, we use Square Cash, mainly because one of the regulars works for Square :)

Udo• 11 years ago

Welp, this causes a huge disparity because the bill comes in and either you need to go line by line to get the total, then impose a line by line tip

The alternative is to make the waiter go around and handle each guest individually. In scenarios where a single payer isn't available and just "collectively putting some cash on the table until it's OK" is not an option, this works quite well. Restaurant staff I think like it as well, because overall the tip will probably be larger.

codezero2• 11 years ago

Many places will refuse to do this, it's the reason that a lot of restaurants have a "X% gratuity for parties larger than Y"

It's annoying, but it's also really annoying to have to break up a bill after the fact, which is why this entire problem exists in the first place. It's definitely not the restaurant's fault that people can't agree on how to pay for things :)

ianburrell• 11 years ago

Splitwise, https://www.splitwise.com/, works well for splitting bills and keeping track of who owes what. I have heard it works really well for ongoing relationships like roommates or coworkers.

fennecfoxen2• 11 years ago

Definitely Splitwise.

Depending on your coworkers, amusing games about who gets to buy each other lunch may ensue as people attempt to get a really nice splitwise score, or demand repayment in the form of remote-controlled helicopters. (But that's startup life for you.)

baby2• 11 years ago

We use it in my apartment (we are 4 dudes living together) and it works great. But you can't expect everyone at work to install it.

7Figures2Commas• 11 years ago

I personally find that brass knuckles are really effective in situations like this but if you have brittle hands, pistol-whipping might be more to your liking.

bliti2• 11 years ago

Cash in hand before ordering. No money, no food. If it were an order of less than $50 total, then no problem. But more than that and you have to be strict. It might be that they see it as only being $5-$20 each, but they are not taking into account the total. Let them know that. Mind you, this is not a problem you fix with code. This is something that you learn from. Don't pay for everybody. You are opening yourself up for stupid office problems.

bluedino• 11 years ago

Who still carries cash?

fennecfoxen2• 11 years ago

Anyone who eats out regularly in New York City.

Anyway. Cash is a boring solution, but you get bonus points if someone brings in a few hundred in dollar coins and $2 bills :P

bliti2• 11 years ago

Uh, everybody? I'm not talking about lots of money. But people will usually have about ten dollars on them. If they dont, well, go to the atm.

greggman• 11 years ago

My friends all use Venmo. I paid for lunch once so I'd have some credit in their system. Then I use that for future lunches.

OedipusRex• 11 years ago

My circle of friends use Venmo, I highly recommend it.

supercapullo• 11 years ago

seriously, how about finding a better place to work with more financially healthy coworkers? If someone need to payback a pizza bill with Paypal, there's something very wrong with these guys

ljoshua• 11 years ago

No it wasn't like that, it was just a chill thing we all did one day, and I don't think anyone was trying to short anyone else. I can excuse forgetting here and there, and most people don't carry cash around the office. It was fine, and a great place to work.

phn• 11 years ago

We used to use a tracking/shame trello board (unpayed/paid/verified columns). The debts sometimes took a long time to be paid, but nothing was left unpaid.

robotcookies• 11 years ago

That's strange because when we do this, the person who initially paid usually ends up with more cash back after everyone else repays. Maybe this is a good way to measure the honesty of co-workers.

But I am the same way and hate trying to 'collect dues'. One approach would be to have everyone take turns paying for the entire meal and not worry about collecting individual payments. They do this in some countries regularly (I think Spain is one) - people take turns paying for everything so it works out in the end. Although I do recall a Spanish friend saying there was one person in her group who would habitually take longer to come up in the roster of "person paying entire meal".

It's an interesting idea for an app though. Instead of you nagging late payers, the app could send email reminders to them. There could be stickiness to an app that has some reputational knowledge of how individuals have paid up in the past. Sort of like a fico score but among friends or coworkers.

ThrustVectoring• 11 years ago

That works only when you've got consistent participation in the group. It's a pain to track when people drop in or out.

Just as fair is to randomly decide who pays for the entire thing - perhaps weighted based on what portion of the check they're responsible for.

contingencies• 11 years ago

One approach would be to have everyone take turns paying for the entire meal and not worry about collecting individual payments. They do this in some countries regularly (I think Spain is one) - people take turns paying for everything so it works out in the end

China famously operates like this. Interestingly, they call the western techniques of splitting the 'AA method', implying an equal split by participants.

ArenaNinja101• 11 years ago

Venmo. People in the office here use it for paying rent, and even splitting cash for cabs, food, and the like.

tmnt0074• 11 years ago

Always do separate tickets for food. This prevents a Tragedy of the Commons, especially with large groups of people whom you do not know well, where there is a real possibility that their Wall Street d-bag friends order the lobster bisque, filet mignon and champagne and expect everyone else ordering a side salad to subsidize their stockbroker-but-has-a-subzero-balancesheet "lifestyle." Don't be a sucker.

tmnt0074• 11 years ago

Maybe it's a signal to change jobs, or launch a startup, where folks aren't petty crooks? Life is short; time is precious.

mbesto• 11 years ago

I get people to send me Square Cash right then and there.

redthrowaway• 11 years ago

Send out and email to the entire office listing the people you still need money from. Then send another one the next week with the one or two stragglers listed. Social pressure and implied shame work great.

scottmcdot• 11 years ago

This reminds me of something my girlfriend wrote. https://abbey.silvrback.com/why-we-should-never-take-it-in-t...

codingdave• 11 years ago

We just take turns paying - it avoids all the micromanagement of getting each dollar back from everybody. Everyone has a big bill once in a while, and free lunches the rest of the time. As long as the group who goes out together is reasonably consistent, in the long run, it is fair to everyone.

nfriedly• 11 years ago

I used to live with 3 roommates and we kept a spreadsheet in google docs of who paid for what (bills, shared groceries, etc.) The spreadsheet automatically figured out who owed who and how much.

Every now and then someone would pass out some cash to catch up (and log it in the sheet). It worked surprisingly well for us.

I think the reasons it worked were 1) everyone agreed in principle, and 2) not entering your updates was effectively the same as giving everyone else money.

silveira• 11 years ago

1. I take a picture of the restaurant bill, in case my memory is obstructed by alcohol. 2. Bill people using Venmo. Email then the picture I took.

For more complicated stuff, life travels, I keep a Google Spreadsheets which calculates what each paid, and how much each needs to pay to the others. Then I share it with everyone.

zackify• 11 years ago

Why did nobody mention Square Cash?

rejschaap• 11 years ago

My Dutch bank has an internet banking app with this feature built in. I guess there is a reason they call it going Dutch. So yeah, switch to a Dutch bank. ;)

Ask HN: How do you get people to pay you back? Tools?

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