NSA spying: France 'will not tolerate' threat to security

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33253639

by p01926 • 11 years ago

93 69 11 years ago

socket0• 11 years ago

I don't remember so much excitement and fury when it became known that the NSA was spying on us common folk. "Espionnage? Against le prolétariat? Who gives une merde?" But suddenly it turns out that the Americans were not only spying on the unwashed masses, but also our unwashed elite, and it's midnight meetings at the Elysée and general outrage all round.

peteri• 11 years ago

To be honest it really should be part of the NSA remit to spy on as many world leaders as possible (friend or foe) I expect GCHQ & whatever the French equivalent is to be doing exactly the same.

I'd be very surprised if GCHQ weren't at least trying to spy on the US president and NSA weren't doing the same to the UK prime minister whenever possible. I'd guess security committee members would also be spied upon as well.

I don't know how far they would go though in terms of breaking and entering to plant bugs etc but they've only got to make look it's a hostile powers work to get away with it.

It's probably only the difficulty of the denials if they get caught that would affect the likelihood of five eyes members spying on each other.

Given the French supposedly bugged Concorde it's seems a bit rich of them to complain.

pluma• 11 years ago

Although I disagree about spying on your allies at this kind of level, I did find it more outrage-worthy that the NSA was spying on the ordinary population than that they were bugging politicians and officials.

justwannasing• 11 years ago

I heard about such things decades ago and surprised anyone thinks it doesn't happen, even among friends. I am positive there are some spies sitting around a table somewhere saying to themselves, "Well, duh. And the sky is blue!"

belorn• 11 years ago

When the US president invites allies to the white-house, I would assume there to be quite of an outcry if guests were found to plant bugs on phones and network switches. I would expect headlines to include "human lives are put at risk" and "we expect invited allies to behave according to national treaties" in all of the large news papers.

I would not expect to see a shrug and a "owell, thats what spying is for, right?".

pessimizer• 11 years ago

To be honest it really should be part of the NSA remit to spy on as many world leaders as possible (friend or foe) I expect GCHQ & whatever the French equivalent is to be doing exactly the same.

This canard seems to be dragged out as a response to any abridgement of civil liberties (of course the FBI should have a agent in every environmental group! Of course Uber should be paying Lyft executives secretly for access to their trade secrets! Of course the NSA should listen in on every phone call! To do otherwise would be stupid and incompetent, and I don't want a stupid incompetent government/company/father.)

What happens when you spy on everyone is that when you get caught, your diplomacy breaks down all over the world and you can't get anything done without direct threats. Also, no one lets anyone connected with you get close to anything important, because you are untrustworthy i.e. when you say you're going to send weapons inspectors, Iraq says: don't send any Americans, they only send spies. A lot of people who studied at American universities and return home get imprisoned and/or executed.

Intelligence gathering is something you do because you want to gain leverage, not lose it. Instead, in the US, it's become another teat for huge incompetent contractors to suck the taxpayer dry.

seren4• 11 years ago

What I find disturbing is the disconnect between the mission statement of the NSA, i.e. counter terrorism and military threats, and what is actually done.

From https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml

The Signals Intelligence mission collects, processes, and disseminates intelligence information from foreign signals for intelligence and counterintelligence purposes and to support military operations. This Agency also enables Network Warfare operations to defeat terrorists and their organizations at home and abroad, consistent with U.S. laws and the protection of privacy and civil liberties.

I mean how spying on your ally head of state is preventing "terrorism" or supporting "military operation". Do you believe that there is a terrorist cell in l'Elysée ?

This is disingenuous at best, but looks more like dishonest.

eis2• 11 years ago

That's something I don't get. Why should intelligence agencies be expected/allowed to spy on allies and friendly nations?

What does it tell you about that "friendship"?

tormeh• 11 years ago

Yeah, I totally agree that leaders of state must expect to be spied upon - much as they must expect media attention. What I'm less enthusiastic about is the spying on people who are unlikely to ever have any strategic significance.

espadrine2• 11 years ago

Espionnage? Against le prolétariat? Who gives une merde?

They always considered that ok, even as it was illegal.

The NSA spying on its citizens was discussed in France, partially because unlike the USA which has a number of laws on counterterrorism and espionage, France is lacking — spy activities are a grey area of the law, which is another way to say they were illegal. I remember a Le Monde article to this effect, citing someone at the DGSE.

After the events at Charlie Hebdo this year, the government felt confident enough to admit that those activities target French citizens and decided to make mass surveillance lawful, which caused a large backlash (notably on Twitter with the hashtag #PJLRenseignement).

But every country spies on every country it interacts with. The difference is that, there, the government does not set the rules; diplomacy does. So they try to make it a big deal to get leverage for the next negotiation. Also, appearing like a protector of the people is a politician's dream.

bad_user• 11 years ago

You know, all over the world people die, the only reason the events at Charlie Hebdo were so significant even for us non-French folks is because this was an act of intimidation against freedom of expression. But it's pretty sad that these events have been used to push for making surveillance lawful. This is very like what happened with the Patriot Act after 9/11. The irony is, because of the ensuing erosion of freedom, those terrorists have won.

yodsanklai3• 11 years ago

decided to make mass surveillance lawful, which caused a large backlash

That wasn't my impression. I don't know about twitter, but there were little discussion about this law on popular media (especially compared to other unimportant issues that are debated for months, and I'm not even talking about the gay marriage that led to huge protests). Sadly, most politicians supported this law, and so did most French people.

odiroot• 11 years ago

It's only a loud buzz. Holande will do nothing about it, just like Merkel.

globuous• 11 years ago

Honnestly, I wouldn't be surprised if both knew about it. They just have to appear to care and to do something about it ("hey Obama, this isn't cool, stop spying on us") because if they didn't, the opposition would us that against them and the general public would be disapointed (to say the least). Why would they let themselves being spied on ? I honnestly have no idea, maybe it's a way to share confidential communications between [ally country] president and [not ally country] president with other allies without having to break the confidential communication between [ally country] and [not ally country]. Again, I have not thought about this at all, that's just a reason that came up to mind. Maybe it's not even a practical reason. Maybe Hollande/Merkel didn't know they were being spied on by the NSA. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if they both knew, and yelled a bit at the US now that the world knows they were being spied on, et voila.

Interestingly however, until very recently (last year) and maybe still as of today, a lot of high profile French poloticians (ministers for eg) use(d) their private smartphones for (some) government communication. This, this is so absurd.

a3n• 11 years ago

Because us common folk don't have a voice.

drzaiusapelord• 11 years ago

That's fine by me. Nation states should be spying on each other. Its within my interests to spy on the French, regardless of whatever bullshit political relationship we have. France is busy building carriers for Putin to oppresses Eastern Europe with, for example. We're not all buddy-buddy in the real world. The only reason those carriers aren't being used to shoot at Ukrainian civilians is because of US pressure to temporarily hold them.

and it's midnight meetings at the Elysée and general outrage all round.

Except this is political theater and face-saving nonsense, just like Merkel's cellphone or the million other things before it. We're still spying on them as we should as its within our interests. They're spying on us, except we don't have a German or French Snowden, or at least not yet. The Five Eyes share intel and spy on each other as well. Being at an information disadvantage is stupid. France, Germany, etc are an election away from assaulting US interests. We have every right to spy on them.

Looks like millennials are starting to learn what Realpolitik means, or are going to once they start to learn how the real world works.

Rondom• 11 years ago

Same thing happened in Germany. Spying on citizens was not a big problem but tapping Merkel's mobile was...

stefantalpalaru• 11 years ago

Original source: https://wikileaks.org/nsa-france/

thibaut_barrere• 11 years ago

This is so meta: "US Intercepts of France Complaining About US Intercepts of France"

https://wikileaks.org/nsa-france/intercepts/#intercept1

pjc50• 11 years ago

Which translates as "will tolerate", because what could they possibly do about it? The DGSE aren't exactly clean themselves.

yodsanklai3• 11 years ago

I assume Hollande knew about this. The French will pretend to be upset, and the US will pretend that it has never happened. End of the story.

hrbrtglm• 11 years ago

I find it amusing that you are opposing on one side a population and on another a country.

So let me rephrase it for you : France will pretend to be upset ... It's part of the game.

As a french, I just don't give a s US spying our officials, I'm much more worried any foreign secret service achieving it. It just shows how much our defense and digital security is weak. If I'm angry, it's towards our own services which can't prevent this kind of stuff.

mladenkovacevic• 11 years ago

They'll huff and puff about this for a little while to give the illusion of surprise and indignation, but after the dust has settled and any offences have been swept under the rug, it'll be back to business of taking orders from the NSA while hoping their dirt stays hidden and no challenges to their legitimacy are posed. Same as Germany.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33106044

mirimir2• 11 years ago

The fact is that the French and US intelligence services enjoy a degree of cooperation and interdependence that no government in Paris would ever dream of jeopardising.

Well, but France isn't one of the Five Eyes. I can't imagine that the French have intercepts from President Obama. But from what I've read, it's conceivable that Israel does.

Given that information is power, who's in charge?

redblacktree• 11 years ago

Wouldn't you like to know.

mirimir2• 11 years ago

It would amuse me.

But otherwise, it arguably wouldn't matter.

drjesusphd• 11 years ago

I find it incredibly suspicious that one of the most powerful institutions in the world, one which controls congressmen, are trusted to regulate their own industry, and has a vital interest in secure communications, is not raising a stink about this.

I'm talking, of course, about Wall Street. Why wouldn't they care that their communications are being intercepted and analyzed by a government agency?

pnathan• 11 years ago

Yes, yes, it's not very gentlemanly to read each other's mail. We know, Mr. Stimson.

And the world will go on, with diplomats and heads of state spied on, like they have been for the past 60 years, because that is how the Great Game works these days.

higherpurpose• 11 years ago

France Pays Lip Service To Protecting Against US Surveillance.

Just like Merkel earlier, yet at the same time telling her prosecutors to stop investigating the US surveillance.

VeejayRampay• 11 years ago

Also Germany was spying on France: https://euobserver.com/defence/128524

It's pretty much a bunch of people spying on each other.

Bedon2922• 11 years ago

Not saying that it excuses any of the actions, nor am I trying to be inflammatory, but I have a serious question.

Does anything really think that France, or Germany, or any other nations is not doing the exact same thing to the US? All governments spy on each other, even allies. That is how its been for probably the entirety of human history, and probably will be for foreseeable future.

simonh• 11 years ago

Well yes of course they are. But what you're not supposed to do is get caught at it.

Bedon2922• 11 years ago

Ok, very valid point. But if everyone is doing it to everyone else and everyone knows it, then what does 'getting caught' actually do? Why bother feigning outrage at it?

TACIXAT• 11 years ago

The French (allegedly) write malware as well. Their group is known as Animal Farm.

https://securelist.com/blog/research/69114/animals-in-the-ap...

NSA spying: France 'will not tolerate' threat to security

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