The orangutan trap

http://aeon.co/magazine/science/can-orangutans-coexist-with-humans/

by benbreen • 11 years ago

33 32 11 years ago

x5n14• 11 years ago

Why have we not genetically engineered all the other ape species on our planet with language and intelligence (at the very least language) and given them legal rights as people that they can defend in court.

The only way to give animals right is to give them a voice literally.

s_kilk• 11 years ago

Because we don't even understand what causes language and intelligence in ourselves yet.

x5n14• 11 years ago

We have some ideas and clues. Just gotta share some of those differences and see what happens. Do that a few times and you have intelligence and language in apes. We already put apes through horrendous experiments, what's a few more? We should at least be working on this as a goal. Otherwise these other species will go extinct it's a matter of time.

jacquesm5• 11 years ago

Because that's science fiction, not genetic engineering.

x5n14• 11 years ago

Science fiction can become science fact... you have to try to do it... that's how it becomes fact.

adamnemecek2• 11 years ago

Sure, let's do that. Why don't you get started?

swombat3• 11 years ago

Some apes are already able to communicate using language - not spoken, but e.g. using a buttons console with symbols on it. They've also been taught sign language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape_language#Apes_that_d...

None of the apes learned "grammar", but they did communicate using language. Did that make a difference to the rights of apes? Of course not.

Whatever you get an ape to achieve, will be immediately defined as not quite sufficient to prove that they are human-like enough to have any rights. The only way to solve this argument is not to give them language but to realise that it is our responsibility to better treat other denizens of this world we share - irrespective of whether they meet some arbitrary criteria of human-ness.

There's a very simple self-interested reason for this too: if we ever encounter aliens, we currently would not have any viable argument to convince them that they should treat us any better than we treat apes.

kazagistar• 11 years ago

Why would that give voice to any animals except apes, and even then, only sometimes? Humans are animals, yet they rarely advocated for all the humans in the world, let alone other species. I really see no reason for apes species being any better.

adamnemecek2• 11 years ago

The worst part is that the recent FDA trans fat ban will only boost demand for palm oil, thus making this issue even worse.

knowtheory2• 11 years ago

The FDA's ban on transfat is almost entirely after the fact. Transfats have been on the outs for a long time, and their use has declined in accordance.

The rise in the use of palm oil has more to do with people thinking that because it's natural, it's "healthy" for you (which is really only true if your baseline for comparison is eating tubs of margarine) thanks to folks like Dr. Oz.

So, since you can't see my eyeroll at the downvotes, here are citations:

NPR piece noting that transfat usage has dropped by 86% before the ban: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/06/16/414906829/fda...

And somewhat surprisingly the wikipedia article on the nutritional & health effects of palm oil is pretty well cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Palm_oil#Nutrition_and_healt...

tl:dr; Transfats are bad for you. That's why they don't sell them. Palm oil isn't vastly healthier than other oils. Eat less fat.

gnoway• 11 years ago

I think what you might be missing is that your 86% number is from the Grocery Manufacturers Association, which is an industry trade group. I would not take that number at face value. I also wouldn't assume that group speaks for restaurants or even all grocers.

Also, the use of an oil doesn't contribute linearly to the trans fat content of whatever is fried in it. Users of hydrogenated oils for frying, for example, are purchasing gallons and gallons of the stuff on a regular basis, with most of that being discarded as waste. Yes, most of the big name fast food chains in the US have switched to other oils, but it's not clear whether all have or to what extent. There may still be a sizable bump in purchases of replacement oils, including palm.

Finally, even if the 86% number is ironclad and extends across the entire prepared food and food service industry, it represents a relative drop against an unknown whole. It says nothing about the absolute volume of hydrogenated oils still in use. IMO this validates the parent's concern.

This plus the general flippant snark of your comment and the weird Dr. Oz reference is why I downvoted you.

imteamcoltra• 11 years ago

I was just thinking today that if we are allowed to cage animals who have the mental development of a 6 year old, why can't we justify caging people who have the mental capacity of a 6 year old.

Kenji• 11 years ago

Oh it's all speciesism. A human has more inherent worth in the common human morals. It makes zero sense from a logical point of view, probably an evolutionary remnant.

reagency• 11 years ago

One day I might have a mentally disabled child. I will have an orangutan as a genetic heir or friend. That logically explains the common sense ethics.

danieltillett3• 11 years ago

Speciesism is ridiculous concept. Humans are inherently worth more than other animals. This does not mean that we should go out of way to maltreat animals, but when the choice is a human life verses an animal’s life then the human's should always come first.

In regards orangutans we can certainly do a better job of ensuring both can exist.

mehwoot• 11 years ago

It makes zero sense from a logical point of view

No, it makes a lot of sense. Treating all species the same would make very little sense. Do bacteria have the same rights as lice which have the same rights as mice which have the same rights as dogs which have the same rights as whales?

In reality, it is a scale. How much we care about an animal varies depending on how big it is, how intelligent it is, what it is capable of and how it interacts with our lives. To pretend every species is the same is just wilfully naive.

ars• 11 years ago

No animals have the mental development of a 6 year old. Even 2 year olds can talk and more importantly ask tons of questions, no animals can do that.

why can't we justify caging people who have the mental capacity of a 6 year old.

They do that all the time in psychiatric hospitals. They are just a bit nicer about it these days.

vinchuco• 11 years ago

Expected something chess-related [1]. This appears to be a different type of game with many players and different understandings of the rules.

[1] 1.B4 Opening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9jaaKUWwBI

The orangutan trap

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