I can build an forever-free and anonymous personal finance web app

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9738698

by adrian_pop • 11 years ago

25 57 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I've always wanted to control my finance, to know where goes my money and one important thing: forecasting. All sites that I've found over this feature as a paid one. Well, listen my plan:

#1. completely free personal finance (home budgeting) web app

#2. most web apps offer overcomplicated interfaces; I think I can create a much more simpler version with the exact needed features

#3. my app will not connect to your bank account

#4. with the possibility to attach documents to your transactions, you have all the control of your files (they will be hosted on your own google drive/dropbox account)

#5. ONLY oauth login with your google/dropbox account (login => a connection is made to your dropbox account, logout => connection closed, tokens destroyed).

#6. Hack-free web app

#7. Provide most useful features for a home budgeting app.

I am still thinking how to monetize this, because I don't want to put up any ad network (at least annual costs: 15$ domain + 120$ hosting)

What do you think of my plan? Would it worth pursuing? I have no interest in knowing who you are, where you live, your name, address or any other personal info.

heimatau• 11 years ago

Any idea that you are this passionate about, is worth endeavoring. Built it, learn some things and relish any measure of success. Happy coding!

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

Thank you!

erikbigelow• 11 years ago

Yeah, what he said.

If what you're building is something you'd use then it's probably something others would use.

mplewis• 11 years ago

For me, the key benefit of Mint and BillGuard is that they link to my bank account and categorize my transactions automatically. I have never been disciplined enough to enter transactions by hand.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

I know both of them are 99.99999% safe, but honestly I don't trust any web app to connect to my bank account(I don't own piles of cash/zeros there).

gohrt4• 11 years ago

The sad thing is that the main risk is that banks use the same token for Read access as ReadWrite access to your accounts. There's no need for that; OAuth solved this problem years ago.

sanderjd• 11 years ago

I use YNAB and I really like going through my transactions manually. I import them from QFX or what-have-you, and then manually confirm them and reconcile. I've found it to be helpful psychologically; I find myself thinking, "ok, that expense seemed great at the time, but am I happy about it now?", which helps me cut down on the kind of spending that I tend to regret.

I used Mint for a long time, and it never helped in any way. I would go look at the summary once or twice a month, think "ok great, all in order", then eventually stop looking at it at all because there was never anything actionable and thus little point in looking.

hugocornejo• 11 years ago

What do you think are those 'exact needed features'?

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

I'll make a list and reply here. Do not forget to check.

sandwell2• 11 years ago

Would you support importing transactions or bank statements?

How do I access my finances if I'm out and about with no internet connection? Or if I forgot to pay my fiber bill?

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

There won't be an "importt feature" from bank statement. As I said in the post, I don't want to operate with personal/sensitive informations.

Let's be serious, we all have internet connection most of the time. When there's no connection, there could be a mobile app (long wait till there).

And no, I don't want the app to pay your bills. You just add: $50, internet bill (attach the pdf/picture or pick one from drive/dropbox) and submit. and meanwhile the document will be uploaded to your drive/dropbox.

muchcomment• 11 years ago

I fiddled with an SPA for personal finance, and I used the js file API in combination with a <input type="file" /> to load a local file and Papa Parse [1] to parse the CSV. You could do all this stuff client side, then push the non-sensitive information (like spending category, date and amount) to your API.

There's a lot you can do frontend and keep your backend simple/stupid. If you host the data in Google Drive or Dropbox, you wouldn't be responsible at all for the potentially sensitive information.

1: http://papaparse.com/

sandwell2• 11 years ago

There won't be an "importt feature" from bank statement.

YNAB's budgeting philosophy discourages importing data from your bank statement because it disconnects the user from the individual transaction that take place. They ended up adding support for CSV/OFX/QIF because people wanted it.

As I said in the post, I don't want to operate with personal/sensitive informations.

All financial data is personal and sensitive, whether imported or manually entered.

Let's be serious, we all have internet connection most of the time.

Most of the time, not all of the time. Especially not in rural areas. I regard my personal finances as pretty important, so not being able to access my budget because I don't have an internet connection is a big problem.

And no, I don't want the app to pay your bills.

Apologies I didn't phrase that right. I meant: What if I forget to pay my internet bill, then can't access my personal finance app to see if I can afford to pay my internet bill?

onion2k2• 11 years ago

my app will not connect to your bank account

Without that feature you're expecting users to manually type all their transactions in to your app. Users, especially people who aren't already good at keeping track of their money, are often too lazy to enter data well, so any forecast you do based on their inputs will be wrong.

The pain point with managing your personal finances is maintaining a good record of the data. That's what you need to solve.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

I am lazy...very lazy, but lazy people most of the time find the best solutions to usual problems that cause them pain the the ass.

I still I can lose 5 minutes every day to remember/type all my transactions.

onion2k2• 11 years ago

A typical person will do 2 or 3 transactions in a normal day - that's about a minute of work inputting them in to Excel or Wally or something. And yet they don't. I don't think knowledge or forecasting is enough of an incentive for people to want to record what they spend. That is the problem that needs solving. At least, I think that's the problem. It could be the case that failing to control what you spend just isn't enough of a pain point for people to need a solution. It might be worthwhile testing that before writing any code.

rpedela• 11 years ago

I am glad you dont mind typing your transactions but it is unwise to assume everyone is like you in this case. It may turn out only a few people are willing to manually input data or maybe most people are like you. Either way this is something that can be tested with usability tests, and I recommend doing so.

robinhoodexe• 11 years ago

Often you can export your transactiondata to csv or a similar format. GNU cash can do this.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

Or as @Delmania suggested: use some standard formats.

s73v3r4• 11 years ago

Right, but now the app is limited until I actually do it. Which I'm going to forget to do for a few months.

Delmania3• 11 years ago

If people don't want to manually enter in transactions, they're not interested in personal finance, they want a fire and forget solution that tells them if they have enough money to buy something.

The reason that people need to manually enter in transactions is to they understand the operating balance, not the physical balance. When I pay my mortgage, there's a delay from when I submit the request to the lender to when the lender draws the money. For the duration of those days, the money may be in the account, but I need to ensure my finances take that into account. Otherwise, I'll submit a transaction, forget about, then buy something, and run into a bounced check or overdraft fee.

smeyer• 11 years ago

I disagree. I don't care about a difference of a few days one way or the other, because I keep enough cash in my checking account that I'm never in danger of bouncing a check or not having money for a big purchase. However, I do care about my finances.

For example, I often examine my spending over a period of a few months to see how I'm spending my money and decide whether I want to make adjustments to my spending habits or budgeting. I can (and sometimes do) do this by exporting a CSV from my bank's website, but I like the convenience of using tools like Mint and letting them auto-categorize my transactions.

gohrt4• 11 years ago

If people don't want to manually enter IP addresses, they're not internet in web browsing, they want a fire and forget solution that shows them cat pictures.

s73v3r4• 11 years ago

I don't think that's true at all. Manually entering in transactions is error prone, time consuming, and most importantly, boring as fuck. Especially because machines can do it for us.

Not wanting to do the boring, not needed stuff does not mean that I'm not interested in personal finance, and don't want to know where my money is going.

amirsonali• 11 years ago

as someone in the fintech space I suggest you build it and check usage. I'd totally pay for this if it can do exactly what you say and is secure. Don't worry about the monetization. Any successful fintech app will get bought out, or there are creative ways to monetize we can discuss later. Shoot me a message if interested ali@sourced.fm

wumbernang• 11 years ago

Sounds reasonable but three points:

1. It's not anonymous. The ledger is enough to identify someone.

2. It's not 100% better than my current spreadsheet (one tab a month for the coming 6 months).

3. There's no motivation not to close it after a month I.e. no contract

technicalfault• 11 years ago

How would this compare to GNUcash, apart from it being on the web?

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

Do you use GNUcash?

boothead• 11 years ago

If you're going to do this, a lot of the guts are already available in the form of http://hledger.org/ or http://ledger-cli.org/. (Can't remember the license offhand, but you might be able to build on them)

sdipchikov• 11 years ago

I’ve already built something similar to that 5 years ago. Currently it is only for Bulgarian’s local market, but it is behaving well in terms of popularity given the fact that I haven’t invested a single penny in SEO or marketing.

http://mypocket.bg/

You can check it out (use google translate to get the idea) we can partner in going international I’m now looking to raise an investment to rebuild and expand it. stoyan@dipchikov.com

gii2• 11 years ago

You did good job. The web is fine, the mobile interface is limited, there is no mobile app. But my overall impression is quite positive. (I've been using the app for few months now)

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

Decent interface and basic features. That's what most of us need. But I want to "artificial intelligence" stuff. Like a smart wallet.

Delmania3• 11 years ago

Look at YNAB.

However, what are you trying to forecast here? In terms of personal finance, the single most important thing to get right is the budget, which is more about planning, and not about forecasting. Everything else is nice, but unless you've got a solid budget module, the app will useless.

However: > #3. my app will not connect to your bank account

Make sure you can process OFX, QFX, and QIF files so that users can clear transactions and reconcile accounts.

#6. Hack-free web app Big claim.
I am still thinking how to monetize this, because I don't want to put up any ad network (at least annual costs: 15$ domain + 120$ hosting)

Why do you think forecasting is a paid feature? Your value proposition to me is not that it's free. It's the level of anonymity you offer.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

1. YNAB is over complicated (just mho), but still has stuccess.

2. Forecasting (more like planning): at this moment I have X in my account. I have a big event in about 90 days from now. I want the app to "learn" from my past months transactions(expenses & income), create a spending pattern and give me some scenarios: the optimist, pessimist and the probable one.

Currently I am trying this in excel...but doesn't work as planned. I want the app to be able "think" in advance.

Eg. you set a goal: $3,000 cash in next 3 months. Then the app should do: check what you did in the past 3 months, check last year on this time if you have any insurance to cover (car, house...etc, yearly recurring transactions) and the result should be: well, you can't gather $3,000 because you might spend them on: X, Y, Z. If you eliminate one of them, you reach your goal. Some kind of rudimentary artificial intelligence.

3. thanks for OFX, QFX and QIF.

4. Honestly, I want to build something that matters. I think I can support these yearly costs, even with a donate button (no ads).

5. Everywhere the forecasting/planning feature is a paid one.

6. As I initially said, I am trying to plan it as anonymous as possible: the data will be tied to an oauth userID, nothing more.

Delmania3• 11 years ago

Taking a step back, who is your target audience?

YNAB is probably one of the simplest budgeting applications in the market. It's successful because it only does budgeting, has extensive training, has a strong community, and emphasizes fiscal responsibility as a lifestyle. However, it's aim is for people who realize they need a budget, but don't know how to do it.

4. Honestly, I want to build something that matters. I think I can support these yearly costs, even with a donate button (no ads).

I think we all do, but if you set out to build "something that matters", you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment. Either define a market and build for them, or build the tool for yourself, and tell others about it. Before you can make $100, you need to make $1.

Your comments about forecasting are interesting. The biggest issue with it is variability. You can develop a plan to make $3000 in 3 months, but then have an unexpected car repair that your car repair fund can't fully cover. However, I don't think that's a strong enough argument to deter you from doing it.

I guess my questions would be how strong are you at budgeting and ML?

Yhippa• 11 years ago

I really want to use YNAB but the reality for me is that I have many different accounts for various reasons. I used to do the manual uploads and reconciliation via importing flat files into Quicken but it just took too much time out of my life.

zuzuleinen• 11 years ago

I also built a more slighter version for my personal use. You can check it out at http://www.moneytablet.com/.

I know, UX is poor and options are poor but for me is perfect. I used it for over a year now, and it's useful enough to pay 5$/month on a digital ocean droplet.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

Way to basic for me. Good luck.

faitswulff• 11 years ago

Sounds like a candidate for sandstorm.io

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

good idea.

tcfunk• 11 years ago

I have considered doing this myself. I have used Mint for a long time, but more and more I feel they are trying to push other services on me. Not to mention it doesn't 100% fit my use case. I have also investigated other solutions, like YNAB as someone else mentioned, but never was impressed enough by them to spend money.

Ultimately, I decided I wasn't worried about it enough to dump my own time into it, but if it's something you're passionate about I'd say go for it, and I wish you luck!

SeanAtkisson• 11 years ago

I think that's a smacking great idea! Have you considered a freemium concept where you could set a basic free package of features and then an enhanced set of paid features?

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

There are many ways to monetize a service, but I will try to keep it free. Maybe a donation button :P

s73v3r4• 11 years ago

A donation button is a poor way to monetize. If you're actually proud of what you've built, do not be afraid to ask money for it.

barile• 11 years ago

Doesnt look like a problem worth pursuing in 2015. Take a look at http://www.ledger-cli.org/ and their libraries on github (there are haskell ports and a web frontend)

gohrt4• 11 years ago

Ledger is nor a solution to this problem.

Ledger never creates or modifies your data. [...] no automated tool will ever change that data.

Therefore, Ledger is always stale, and only useful for obsessive stamp-collectors.

stephengillie• 11 years ago

This actually sounds like a bunch of features I won't use, and you're excluding the features that I would want. I assume I'm not your target audience.

1. Nothing is free. Even if you provide it for free, there is still awareness, evaluation, switching costs, and long-term trust (that you will remain motivated in supporting this project across the next few years)

2. I think I can create a self-driving robot. If you think you can create a simpler interface, create a simpler interface. Put your money where your mouth is. Pics or it didn't happen.

3. If your service doesn't talk to my bank, how will it know where I'm spending my money? I've got better things to do than data entry.

4. What documents of my transactions? Do you mean your app will OCR my debit receipts? I'm paperless and try to avoid receipts, so I'd rather just have you talk to my bank.

5. Oh, I don't have to trust you with my bank info, but I have to trust you to login with my Dropbox/Google info? Those creds are more valuable to me. Why not just do local storage to a local Dropbox?

6. Accident-proof car!

7. Features like?

I don't mean to completely shoot you down; I merely want to deflate you a little. This granstanding post is quite the brag, but without substance it's meaningless.

adrian_pop14• 11 years ago

1. Free for the user, not for me

2. pics will come with a landing page

3. If you have better things to do, than personal finance or planning, you don't need this service

4. documents = bills. I add an entry: electric bill - 100$, but the interface where I pay it keeps only my last 6 bills, not everything, so I want them stored automatically somewhere/

5. I don't need your dropbox/google info. You click a login button, redirect to oauth interface, login on the oauth server then come back to me with a token.

It's not shooting down, it's reality, it's the reason I posted this.

ryandrake2• 11 years ago

I would not use this app (due to #3) but best of luck and wishes for your success. There are very few such apps/services out there, and this market is in desperate need of disruption. I would love to see a real alternative to Quicken/Mint emerge.

s73v3r4• 11 years ago

I'm not gonna tell you not to go for it. However, the reason most of the other apps connect to bank accounts is because that way they can actually get the whole picture information that's needed to make them useful. How are you going to get the transactions without connecting to their bank account? Have them enter the transactions? I'm going to forget, and I might have far too many to do by hand. I'll enter 3, mistype one, and then give up.

Also, the easiest way to monetize is for it to be paid. You did hard work; why shouldn't you be paid for it?

patcon• 11 years ago

Step one could be to define an open data format for personal budget data, like todo.txt for finances :)

Then you can simply submit PR's to current system open finance tracking apps, and you can sync state between with dropbox or syncthing or seafile or whatever

Grazester• 11 years ago

So you want people to have to manually enter a transaction each time it occurs? This means keeping receipts that can easily be lost along with actually making the effort to do so. I dont see that happening.

Make it. If this is something you want to pursue then do so. You have nothing to lose(I hope you don't at least).

msallin• 11 years ago

Hey man, I'm building something similar, I'd love to chat about it with you. Used to work at Intuit, came up with this idea, I've been working on this for 5 years, full time for two.

johnsocs• 11 years ago

I'm actually a YNAB user. My wife and I started using it recently and really enjoy application. The budgeting system works perfect but there are a few features I wish it did have.

1. Target goals - Take the thinking out of saving for a target, you should be able to tell the system I want to save x in y time and it should tell you exactly what you need and if you adjust your budget when the new target date will be.

2. I want to be able to enter my bills into the system when the arrive at my house and have it remind me to pay them X days before they are due. I don't want the paper bills sitting on / in my desk until I pay them (QuickBooks can do this).

Also checkout: https://www.everydollar.com/

I believe Dave Ramsey and his people have put this together is free unless you want bank connection BUT still makes the end user think and do some work. I a totally automated system is BAD as people put their fiances on autopilot.. this SHOULD require some work.

I can build an forever-free and anonymous personal finance web app

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