My Ukraine

http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2015/myukraine

by piercestanley • 11 years ago

54 58 11 years ago

amyjess3• 11 years ago

You can begin a lot of things with "The nightmare Vladimir Putin has visited upon"...

I'm an LGBT person (specifically, I'm both L and T), and after seeing what Putin did to my people, I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who supports Russia in any way.

pluma4• 11 years ago

Radical ideological extremism is harmful, no matter whether you think you're justified.

Yes, a lot of Russian politics are pretty worrying and negatively impact the lives of all kinds of people, but if you paint everyone in such broad strokes, you end up coating the entire world.

amyjess3• 11 years ago

It's literally illegal to say it's OK to be gay in Russia. They are an oppressive government that is targeting my people for extermination.

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

Agree.

at-fates-hands• 11 years ago

I've known several people from Croatia, Latvia, Georgia and now Ukraine. They all look down upon Russians and are easily offended when people refer to them as such.

Definitely no love loss for Putin or Russia among them.

goerge19802• 11 years ago

I am sure a lot of North Osetians in Georgia are offended when they remember Georgia invading them and killing helpless people because the prime minister of Georgia back then was a US puppet.

Muromec4• 11 years ago

They all look down upon Russians and are easily offended when people refer to them as such.

It is more complicated.

Being ethnic Russian is not same thing as speaking Russian language. Speaking Russian language or being ethnic Russian is not same as being pro-Russia politically.

Yet, Russian propaganda implies this things are same and Russian govt represents interests of all people who speak this language.

As result (some) people abandon language, distance themselves from Russia or don't consider themselves Russian anymore.

shit_parade2• 11 years ago

Odd since it was America which instigated the Ukrainian coup, inflamed ethnic tensions, and continue to push towards military conflict.

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

Completely agree.

alexyes• 11 years ago

Russia invaded Ukraine. It was an invasion. End of the story. Why are you blaming the US?

Muromec4• 11 years ago

ethnic tensions

No ethnic tensions really happened in Ukraine ever. Biggest problem I (as ethnic Russian and Ukrainian citizen) ever had was about spelling my name in Latin letters.

It's totally made up topic that just appears before elections.

You can use spoken and written Russian almost everywhere including contracts, court, communication with government employees, etc.

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

The people in the east would disagree. There are ethnic tensions. Even VICE shows Nazi ukranian soldiers.

mr_luc2• 11 years ago

I think that this article could end up being cited a lot. It has a very believable thesis. I'd like to see it put to the test, and then condensed down and hopefully inform news reporting a bit.

If we accept that, as a member of the super-wealthy post-USSR kleptocracy engaged in an endless Presidency, Putin is naturally most concerned about maintaining domestic power, then the thesis is: massive uprisings in their largest ex-Soviet neighbor, against a Russian-allied President, where the public floods into the President's palace and becomes even more enraged at evidence of their wealth (a golden loaf of bread; a pirate-ship restaurant), make it impossible domestically that Putin not respond with a show of force.

As the article says, he and his chums have palaces too.

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

People like you completely miss the point on Russia. You cannot accept that it is indeed a democracy, that people are not brainwashed. And that pretty much the contrary of what western media portrays is happening there. Trust me, i've been there.

ljak• 11 years ago

They are not brainwashed to the same extent that the people of North Korea are brainwashed, but the majority of them do get all of their news from (State-owned) TV channels and uncritically subscribe to the ruling party's ideology.

Like Neocons in the US.

romankolpak• 11 years ago

Could you provide a reliable source with a more or less unbiased information about Russia then? And please don't mention Russia Today :)

Because any I've been reading a lot of information on the matter from a large number of sources, and couldn't help but draw a conclusion that Russia is indeed a pseudo-democracy trying hide its totalitarian essence.

mr_luc2• 11 years ago

I'm sorry -- but Putin employs professional trolls to comment, often in teams of 2 or 3, often speaking amongst themselves to first divert and then control the conversation, on forums just like this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9269760

That makes it a bit difficult to respond in good faith to people who chime in with vague, 'you people believe the western media too much' comments.

But I'd be interested in knowing your response to concrete things I mentioned in my comment. For instance, how wealthy is Putin? How about his close allies? And how did they make their fortunes? And is he in an endless Presidency, or not?

(None of which is to say that Putin hasn't been a fantastically successful President; he reintroduced the stability necessary for Russia to succeed, which it really has during his Presidency ... but the problems with success via concentration of power in one man are age-old, and a common one is a foreign policy, motivated by entirely domestic concerns and a desire to stay on top, that appears irrational on the international stage).

Shivetya• 11 years ago

While Putin has many faults blaming him for the situation that lead up to modern day Ukraine is not right. The Ukrainian people overthrew their elected government lead by Yanukovych who may or may not have sought Russia's help in protecting his government. Basically a series of dysfunctional leaders led to Yanukovych's ouster and when they could not get their affairs in order Putin took Crimea.

So while Putin's people are likely causing issues in Ukraine it is just as likely there are many people in Ukraine who did not support the revolution and seek outside support for the last legitimately elected government.

TL;DR. the people of Ukraine made a mess of it, gave Putin and opening, and still cannot sort it out. Not the news HN should be showing

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

Completely agree.

smhenderson2• 11 years ago

Putin took Crimea.

That's enough for me to put the blame squarely on Russia for the current situation. Whether the people who initiated the coup against Yanukovych represent the entire population, a majority or a minority, it's an internal Ukrainian affair and Russia has no business interfering.

Add the take down of the Dutch plane, the nonsense about tanks taking "relief supplies" over the border, soldiers getting "lost on vacation" and it's pretty clear that Putin is engaging in an illegal war.

And, yes, I am from the US. I don't agree with our illegal wars either so please don't go there.

goerge19802• 11 years ago

You might take a look at Paul Graig Roberts articles at http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/ so that, you as an American may become more informed of what your "government" is doing to other countries

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

Crimea was Russian and voted to join Russia. Illegal wars are what the US wages around the world. Russians are helping the insurgents unoficially because Nuland and that scumbag US ambassador placed a Nazi Junta in power.

kvark2• 11 years ago

Crimea question is not obvious and straightforward at all, please stop pretending it is.

Also, why do you think Putin (personally?) took down the plane? Where is any international investigation report claiming that with a proof?

pluma4• 11 years ago

It's also worth noting that despite the article's assurances that these are mere misconceptions, there really was a Western power struggle surrounding the Ukrainian uprising before the Crimean affair.

As much fun it is to bring up the infamous "Fuck the EU" phone leak, there were serious efforts to pave the road for a Ukranian entry into the EU and/or NATO -- a knowing violation the silent agreement to have a post-Soviet buffer zone between the West and Russia.

stfnppv2• 11 years ago

The Ukrainians have no obligation to uphold any kind of "silent" agreement. If they want to join an economic organization, it is their right to do so - a sentiment they expressed through Euromaidan.

stfnppv2• 11 years ago

Ehhhhh, no. Yanukovych was a Putin puppet elected with Russian money that served predominantly Russian interests, hence his defiant opposition to what the populace wanted - steps to integrate with the European Union.

His government turned on its own people and cracked down on protesters, leading to the events of EuroMaidan. Putin of course would not have the European Union in his backyard. He also certainly did not want his main access to the Black Sea to be cut off, so he used the turmoil to annex Crimea, while keeping Eastern Ukraine as unstable as possible.

kvark2• 11 years ago

Seems pretty one-sided and biased. Mentioning Putin personally way too many times, unrelated to the proportion of influence that he's got in the situation.

We are engineers here, we know that big disasters come from a complex of different factors. Why do you think Ukraine is an exception, why continue blaming a single person? I don't see why this sort of article should be on HN.

juliangoldsmith2• 11 years ago

I wonder if the Russian government's Internet trolls try to compromise accounts to make discussion look legitimate.

For instance, felipepiresx was entirely inactive for over a year, before jumping all over this thread 20 minutes ago.

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

with all due respect. I'm a person. I'm Brazilian. I'm not Russian. It's amazing how dismissive people are of people who have a contrarian opinion.

juliangoldsmith2• 11 years ago

I can understand having a contrary opinion; your opinion is perfectly valid. But how vehemently you're arguing your opinion, along with your long absence from posting, seems a bit suspicious to me.

serg_chernata2• 11 years ago

A Brazilian, how could you possibly know what's really happening on the ground in eastern Europe?

edit: spelling

PauloManrique• 11 years ago

I bet you support our government

felipepiresx18• 11 years ago

Just because I was absent for one year it doesn't mean I'm a troll. I have my opinions.

analyst742• 11 years ago

There is no need to bring up personal attacks in an HN discussion. If you disagree with his points, then you can provide counter argument; if his comments are just insults with no backing argument, then down vote him.

ISL• 11 years ago

The article title is "My Ukraine", highlighting the distinctive personal-perspective nature of the piece.

Mrs. Freeland's long-duration take on the situation makes it most worth reading.

analyst742• 11 years ago

I followed the news for a while now with regards to Ukraine. I don't understand why people are arguing about legitimacy of things in international politics.

The facts are simple:

- Russia had Ukraine in her iron grip

- EU was expanding east

- pro-Russian president turned down EU's offer

- Ukrainians got pissed, because the state of things suck and they want change, and EU seems like a good idea (whether it will work out for them is another story)

- they overthrew the pro-Russian government, and got a pro-EU one, who is unfortunately also quite corrupt, but that's beside the point

- Russia is pissed, and finds a way to intervene.

In short, the west started a diplomatic/cultural war in Ukraine, and Russia lost, so it's resorting to physical war now. There is really no good guys in international politics.

My Ukraine

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