Ceres RC3 Animation: Bright spots revealed to be composed of many smaller spots

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=pia19547

by anigbrowl • 11 years ago

110 74 11 years ago

jpl.nasa.gov

tgbrter2• 11 years ago

Scattered remains of a huge alien spaceship?

( Sadly it is probably just ice. )

gregor7777• 11 years ago

Yeah a huge alien ice spaceship.

tgbrter2• 11 years ago

Actually, a large part of a spaceship capable of traveling near c would be comprised of ice, as a shield from relativistic particles.

https://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html

Maultasche• 11 years ago

I thought of that too. It sure would be exciting if it turned out to be something artificial.

However, I agree with you that it's far more likely that it's something perfectly natural like ice. Not quite as interesting.

ceejayoz5• 11 years ago

I really want the New Horizons probe to whiz past Pluto and find a giant "WE WUZ HERE" scrawled across the surface.

slater2• 11 years ago

Or our space junk.

KhalilK• 11 years ago

our space junk is stuck orbiting the Earth.

swamp40• 11 years ago

It looks like the Apple logo and the Android logo have been fighting, and the Apple has bitten off one of Android's arms and part of its head.

xhrpost• 11 years ago

First I've heard of this, are these spots within the visible spectrum?

robflynn• 11 years ago

I believe so. They have (if I recall) viewed them with both visible and infrared spectrums.

(found some photos)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_%28dwarf_planet%29#/medi...

NobleLie5• 11 years ago

Electric Universe Theory has non-mainstream coherent and sensible explanations for these type of phenomena. Any HN users well versed in it's explanations? Been reading up on it lately and I'd like to discuss.

slater2• 11 years ago

Sounds like woo.

NobleLie5• 11 years ago

As much as I was hesitant to question many things taught to me as truth in my physics, electrodynamics and quantum mechanics courses, I did. And was surprised. Some of it just doesn't corroborate with physical observations. I'm obviously not saying it's all wrong; that's stupendous foolish. But you should be more open to it instead of typing three words of dismissal.

"One can acquire certainty only by amputating inquiry"

Society of Mind, Marvin Minsky

pavel_lishin3• 11 years ago

Electric Universe Theory has non-mainstream coherent and sensible explanations for these type of phenomena.

What type of phenomena? "Unexpected stuff"?

NobleLie5• 11 years ago

EU theory contains a lot of supposed explanations. I do it injustice (as do themselves) by labelling it as one all encompassing theory. It becomes easier to dismiss as a whole since not every single thing presented under the umbrella might be truthful.

That being said, here's one that you might benefit from thinking about. The modern explanation of redshift from astronomical bodies seems just plain wrong. Why? There are large currents of plasma which are observed to connect two objects whose measured redshift (according to mainstream astrophysics) would put them at different sections of the universe.

Since we use redshift to make assumptions about the nature of spacetime, the big bang and an accelerating, expanding universe; the latter invoking necessary dark matter and dark energy (a purely theoretical, abstract idea by scientists which might never be found experimentally) this point deserves more credence than other points which fall under EU.

david-given7• 11 years ago

Here's a laundry list of problems with EU:

http://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.ch/p/chall...

(At a cursory glance it looks valid, despite the domain name.)

NobleLie5• 11 years ago

Thanks for the link. Checking it out now.

Anyway, after around 5 to 10 hours of investigative reading on EU, it seems quite worthy to think about/ follow up on.

At the minimum it's become quite apparent that the Astronomical Standard Model has plenty of spots which are expressed as truth, when there are real problems with observation. I'm not even claiming EU is going to better, but staunch supporters do highlight some interesting inconsistencies and seemingly misguided judgements of modern astronomers. That's not to say their own pet theories are bound to be better though.

ceejayoz5• 11 years ago

Mainstream science has coherent and sensible explanations for these type of phenomena, namely "ice has high albedo", that don't require a bunch of woo.

kaybe• 11 years ago

Probably rather "Fresnel equations" and "interestingly shaped surfaces", along with "fluorescence". (In the older gif, the spots stay bright even on the night side of the planet.)

teraflop• 11 years ago

Given that you seem to be the only one in this thread who has read about this theory and takes it seriously, why don't you tell us how it explains these bright spots? Otherwise there's not much here to discuss. The Wikipedia article on "plasma cosmology" doesn't make it seem particularly relevant.

_rpd2• 11 years ago

It's a crank theory. Don't waste your time.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe

FeepingCreature• 11 years ago

To downvoters: While EU is almost certainly nonsense, keep in mind that cranks are the people who would be most interested in finding flaws in the standard models, so if those flaws exist, one might well hear them from cranks, even if their own models are far worse.

If you look at this, don't look at it to become more certain in EU, look at it to potentially become less certain in the standard model. Flaws are points of confusion we can mine for novel insight.

ceejayoz5• 11 years ago

Unfortunately, cranks have a serious signal vs. noise problem. Even if they blunder into a correct answer, it's difficult to tell.

ChuckMcM2• 11 years ago

This just keeps getting better and better. Can't wait to find out what they end up with. I'm still betting on exposed water ice but would totally love it if this was the bright shiny core of a nickel/iron meteorite.

Florin_Andrei3• 11 years ago

I dunno. I've seen NiFe meteorite material, and it's anything but shiny.

ChuckMcM2• 11 years ago

This one is pretty shiny, http://scienceviews.com/photo/library/SIA2743.html

david-given7• 11 years ago

Now, I'm not saying it's aliens, but...

Sadly, it's probably just a really interesting icy outcrop of some description. Current theories of Ceres' composition suggest an enormously thick icy layer covered in dust and rock, so a meteor strike could expose the ice (and probably cause all kinds of weird physics --- ice goes strange under extreme temperatures and pressures).

But let's say it is aliens, and in a week or so we get pictures of what is indubitably an alien city.

Thought experiment: what happens next?

imaginenore• 11 years ago

Next countries spend all their money trying to get there first to get that sweet sweet alien technology.

tlarkworthy• 11 years ago

a civil war on Earth, it would negate a lot of firmly held beliefs by some communities. Even secular groups might consider it imperative to stop any further contact.

ajuc• 11 years ago

Meh.

Science negated more firmly held beliefs of many religious communities and nobody fought wars over that. They either adapted, or deny all evidences.

There was no Great Religious War Over The Theory of Evolution or over the age of universe. People prefer to live in denial. Much more convenient than dying in a war (indirectly acknowledging beliefs you don't like).

CamperBob23• 11 years ago

Religious people already have to deal with immense cognitive dissonance in a large number of contexts. Accommodating the discovery of extraterrestrial life won't be that difficult.

honestcoyote• 11 years ago

It's a fun thought experiment. I've had a similar one, imagining an alternate cold war with the divergent point being the mid 60's Mariner probe visit to Mars revealed canals, cities, vegetation, and a shallow ocean.

A city on Ceres would make NASA's budgetary woes go away instantly. Either there would be a new space race, or the various spacefaring nations would quickly make an arrangement for a multinational crew to visit, with each nation (or group like the EU) reserving the right to make claims later. I'm not sure how the public would react. I think they'd be glued to the news, but there wouldn't be any sort of panic, since both science and science fiction has led many people to expect finding this sort of thing one day.

david-given7• 11 years ago

Of course, it's worth considering that if there was an inhabited alien city on Ceres, the chances of them not knowing we were here would be nil.

So, alternative (a): they know we're here and for some reason don't want us to know about them.

Alternative (b): they know we're here but either don't care / are too alien to want to communicate.

Alternative (c): the city is uninhabited.

I would say that the most immediate reaction on earth would be shouting, initially at each other, but very quickly people would be shouting at Ceres --- everyone who can do some basic electronics and get hold of a satellite dish will be making transmissions. For alternatives (b) and (c) above, we wouldn't get a reply. For (a), well...

ceejayoz5• 11 years ago

I've had a similar one, imagining an alternate cold war with the divergent point being the mid 60's Mariner probe visit to Mars revealed canals, cities, vegetation, and a shallow ocean.

Reminds me a bit of the awesome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281998_video_game%2...

ars2• 11 years ago

Thought experiment: what happens next?

Oddly enough, not that much. You'll have a lot of emotion, and lots of ink spilled, but little will change for the day to day life of most people: They have their lives to worry about, aliens are cool, but don't put bread on the table.

Governments will race to get a mission with humans to visit.

What happens next depends on if there are living aliens there, or just an old city.

dholowiski• 11 years ago

What happens next depends on if there are living aliens there, or just an old city.

But, when that mission arrives to inspect the lights, couldn't we expect that contact with alien technology, even if it is just an alien laser, to profoundly change our science?

saganus• 11 years ago

I think it would actually happen a lot.

Maybe not on our daily lives, so I don't think (I hope..) there will not be wide spread panic. Maybe a few groups here and there but nothing we've never seen before.

What I would expect though, and I consider this a big deal, is the potential for humans to start answering one of life's most intriguing questions: are we, or are we not alone in this Universe? Like Clarke famously said, both alternatives are pretty scary.

So at least I would hope people would start pressuring governments to actually go there and make contact. As a lot of other people say, humans seem to be explorers by nature.

However there's the other fact that someone else posted. Probably this would not be know at first, so it's harder to gauge with that factor. I don't think NASA/Gov would release this info right away, but I do think if this info is ever released, it would make the world change a lot. Maybe not immediately, but for sure on the mid-to-long term.

MrZongle2• 11 years ago

"Thought experiment: what happens next?"

I'll bite. :D

Publicly-accessible data from Dawn stops immediately. Specific data from the on-board components provided by the Netherlands, Italy and Germany are sanitized and given to the specific country. Everything else is classified under the umbrella of national security.

There is a hue and cry from many quarters regarding the blackout, bringing both the tinfoil hat brigade and legitimate scientists together.

The reaction of religious organizations run the full spectrum from warning of "work of the Devil" to those that welcome evidence of alien life as alternate forms of God's work.

The American media will ask the burning questions prompted by their internal research departments: what did the President know and when did he know it, and how will this affect the next episode of "Keeping up with the Kardashians"?

And the world will be subjected to a wave of horrible alien-themed movies, books and television programs quickly cobbled together to take advantage of the news.

North Korea will threaten the alien city with destruction if it doesn't acknowledge that Kim Jong Un is the ruler of Earth.

The price of oil will rise, inexplicably fall, and rise again.

The day-to-day lives of regular folks will otherwise be unaffected.

suprgeek• 11 years ago

Inhabited alien city? Unimaginable changes

Empty city (for some definition of empty - we may never know) Not that much in the short run

CamperBob23• 11 years ago

Thought experiment: what happens next?

Press release from NASA: "Unfortunately, the Dawn probe appears to have experienced a technical malfunction, resulting in complete signal loss. Engineers are studying the problem, but no further information is currently available."

That's about all we'll hear, for a while at least.

mc808• 11 years ago

Is it possible for amateurs/other space agencies with a big enough dish to capture the raw Dawn data themselves as it comes in, or is that stuff encrypted these days?

(I assume outgoing command signals use some sort of authentication scheme, but that seems unnecessary for incoming data.)

Zardoz842• 11 years ago

Phobos 2 probe again ...

oliyoung• 11 years ago

Secret city, inhabited by aliens, close enough to know who we are but smart enough to stay away? http://marvel.com/universe/Inhumans

discardorama• 11 years ago

I used to think 'ice' too, but think about this: the sun is basically a point-source of lighting for Ceres; and yet the bright spot can be seen at various angles. Now, it is possible that it's a huge jaggedy piece of, such that it reflects sunlight at a wide range of angles; but what if it isn't? :-)

nealabq• 11 years ago

On the far right side of the picture, near the vertical middle, there's a crater with straight sides, like a ... hexagon. And there's a similar sized pentagon near the top.

Looks like Ceres is a Goldberg polyhedron.

Oh, and the bright spots are thermal exhaust ports.

mirimir• 11 years ago

Many of the craters do seem polygonal.

But see http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-27548-7_5

andrewstuart2• 11 years ago

The bright spots are cool and all, but what's the deal with the lines across the surface? They remind me a bit of the lines you see from rocks moving across dry lakebeds. (http://geology.com/articles/racetrack-playa-sliding-rocks.sh...)

_rpd2• 11 years ago

May be the underlying ice melting and refreezing like on Europa ...

http://i.space.com/images/i/000/029/810/i02/europa-thick-ice...

... due to occasional asteroid strike?

Florin_Andrei3• 11 years ago

If the lines end up converging towards a crater, then they are caused by ejecta from a meteorite impact.

The Moon is full of such lines - I've taken this picture a while ago, and the ejecta lines are clearly visible after some post-processing:

http://i.imgur.com/o81hb.jpg

nekopa2• 11 years ago

Great pic. Would you mind telling me the setup you used o take it? I currently have a DSLR with only a 300mm lense and have yet to get a photo of the moon that nice...

Ceres RC3 Animation: Bright spots revealed to be composed of many smaller spots

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