Erik Naggum, RIP (2009)

http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggum_rip

by KC8ZKF • 11 years ago

57 19 11 years ago

open.salon.com

rurban3• 11 years ago

Oh that's nice. I sat with Kent and Eric at the very same Lisp conference in Berkeley at the very same dinner table, Eric was just elected as some sort of community spokesman, which was odd but nice, and he was the nicest person. He was never arrogant.

We always respected him, because he was mostly right in his endless and beautiful posts to comp.lang.lisp. He used the emacs news reader with block aligned paragraphs. But it was also a bit threatening to newbies, because he easily lost his control with them. I rarely dared to ask something. Similar to other famous figures in SW mailinglists. I know of 2 others, who I also highly respect. Just because they were always right and their code was beautiful.

His posts were so famous, someone even made a searchable archive out of it: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/

#<Erik>

-- sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable from irony

e402• 11 years ago

But it was also a bit threatening to newbies, because he easily lost his control with them. I rarely dared to ask something.

It wasn't just newbies. He came across like a completely different person in email vs live and in person. I never once saw him lose his cool in front of someone. I saw it many, many times in public and private email.

As an aside, it's always strange to click on a link on some random site and see a photo I took.

mcphage3• 11 years ago

He came across like a completely different person in email vs live and in person. I never once saw him lose his cool in front of someone. I saw it many, many times in public and private email.

If someone is pleasant in person, yet crass or cruel online—but 99% of our interaction with them is online—then I think their online persona is the real them, and their pleasant in-person demeanor is the fake.

jdonaldson• 11 years ago

I went through the articles with an open mind. I know this is going to be an unpopular sentiment here... but, to be honest they don't give a good impression of him in my mind.

I think it's just really a bad idea to have a large part of your legacy defined in usenet posts.

Here's his xml rant people pointed me to: http://www.schnada.de/grapt/eriknaggum-xmlrant.html

XML is great but it's not exactly the deep end of the pool. I honestly don't understand why someone with his intelligence would bother with something like that if it generated such negativity.

Finally, at the end of the day, I think XML defined Erik Naggum more than the other way around.

rurban3• 11 years ago

The SGML/XML rant is a classic topic of his, and he ranted about it constantly. And lisp was the perfect forum for this. Everybody was with him on this.

But you need to know some context: Before the simple WWW there was the better web, with consistent client editing tools (Amadeus), where all your links and pages were in (HTP Hyper Text Protocol) database. The server part had builtin search, was stateful (sessions), and was overall just better.

The markup language to create those new rich formats (i.e. with links and media) was lisp based (DSSSL), and formatted down to the stupid formats we know now. Everybody thought who can you be so stupid to reinvent the wheel in such an insane way. But insanity prevailed, as usual.

The machines and SW environment were rich and good, he had a Sparc, and not so simple as the typical Windows 3 environment,

That's the world which was destroyed by the web (stateless simple servers without any features, stupid clients, stupid inconsistent "loose" markup) and its new language XML. The technical SGML and XML groups were considered the problem of the whole IT industry to Eric. LISP expressions were not only superior, condense, readable, we also had all the tools already to work with them. XML was a huge throwback. It was a political battle we lost. That's why he loved to go on and on like this on every occasion, when ever he found someone who seemed to be fond of the web, html, xml or those likes. Those stupid people destroyed our better LISP world.

mcphage3• 11 years ago

to be honest they don't give a good impression of him in my mind

He was a bully. An incredibly intelligent bully, who liked to pick on people he felt he was smarter than. And in most cases, he probably actually was smarter than them, which made it feel justified in his mind.

tptacek• 11 years ago

Previously:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=672582

comrade1• 11 years ago

Since this is posted here is it a sign that HN is going to get some edge? It's probably too much to hope for... I'm sure we'll continue to be subject to the same wimpy upvoters/downvoters we've always been subject to...

This place could use some open criticism and degradation. Any criticism of ridiculous start-ups or bad science is criticized for not being open-minded, for ridiculing someone's life's work. Well, sometimes it's deserved.

SamReidHughes• 11 years ago

There's criticism and then there's "criticism." I see plenty of criticism of ridiculous startups and bad science and bad articles here so I don't know what you're getting at. See for example the recent Bengali unicode thread. But usually if a thing has obvious criticisms then there's no point in people stomping on that, it's just dumb and obvious and nobody cares to read the unneedful.

batemanesque• 11 years ago

yes, HN is truly exemplary in its rigorous self-examination

DanBC• 11 years ago

I never understand the confusion between "criticism" and "rudeness".

There is already too much rudeness and this should be downvoted (and flagged if needed). It's weird to call such downvoting wimpy.

gcv• 11 years ago

I miss Erik. comp.lang.lisp was the last newsgroup I followed when USENET went into its tailspin, and I gave up on it when he left. He was an incredible teacher for those who listened.

et2o• 11 years ago

It is quite rare to die from ulcerative colitis. I am curious as to what the fatal complications were.

rurban3• 11 years ago

A very special high school friend of mine also died of this. He was super intelligent, a very depressive computer hacker, very insecure with other people, almost never left his room after high school and that's how he died eventually. Alone in his room. He wouldn't go to visit a doctor or call someone or tell anyone.

Erik Naggum, RIP (2009)

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