Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2015/01/31/windows_10_re_crappifying_windows_8/

by smcgivern • 11 years ago

42 83 11 years ago

ignorethecode.net

jagermo• 11 years ago

Good points and well written (not the usual troll rant).

However what I dread most are the vendors and their crapware bundeling programs. Uch.

Filligree• 11 years ago

However, here's the thing: Windows are useful. An UI which pretends you shouldn't use them isn't good for anything complicated, when you use more than one application at a time.

Hierarchical start menus are also useful, for that matter.

dragonwriter• 11 years ago

However, here's the thing: Windows are useful.

I'm increasingly convinced that overlapping Windows are not particularly useful (they are better than one-thing-maximized-is-the-only-option), but tiled windows are very useful.

tluyben22• 11 years ago

Tiles are useful. Using a tiling window manager or splitting Metro or vim with splits or emacs with splits you see what's useful. Windows is not imho; tiling very much is. Tiling with virtual desktops.

Edit: To me Metro tablet size without desktop or iOS with tiling would be the best.

ChicagoDave• 11 years ago

This is why Microsoft introduced their Signature series. If you purchase any hardware with that identifier, there is no OEM bloatware. I picked up an HP Stream for my daughter and I was shocked to see it really was _just_ Windows and nothing else.

engendered4• 11 years ago

The whole bit on loss aversion (which is a tactic to undermine people's opinions by ascribing them to unproductive emotional reactions, rather than objective evaluations that have people liking Windows 8 less than 7), and then the "I don’t really see anything positive about going back to an interaction design originally devised in 1995", undermine the piece and do make it seem more like a rant than an unbiased evaluation: Someone with a touch screen tablet likes Windows 8, and doesn't like some of the changes in Windows 10. Welcome to the party the rest of us have lived in.

Windows 8 on the desktop was objectively terrible. The charm bar, the weird interactions, the gigantic click points that completely undermined the benefit of a highly precise mouse. It was a step backwards as Microsoft tried to force touch metaphors and designs on a mouse world. Now this user is complaining that they're forcing mouse metaphors on his tablet.

izacus2• 11 years ago

I think you entirely missed the viewpoint of the author: He's trying to use Windows 10 as a tablet OS not as a desktop OS and from that perspective they threw away everything that made Windows UX on tablets good to reintroduce all the hideous cluttered desktop patterns.

They just basically reinvented an ugly version of Windows 7 while throwing away what made Windows 8 a genuinely good OS on tablets - essentially instead of separating the desktop and tablet experience they went back to pushing desktop UI on tablet users.

engendered4• 11 years ago

I think you entirely missed the viewpoint of the author

When people say that someone missed the point on HN, most of the time that means that they want you to read it the way they read it, and ignore those annoying bits that say something different.

Only this author not only undermines any disagreement with Windows 8 (just loss aversion), criticizes "old" interfaces (cars had 4 wheels in the 20s....give me my new style 3 wheel car), they specifically hold up its advantages on the desktop.

Not once do they mention the obvious solution -- that Microsoft should have gone separate directions on the desktop and the tablet -- but instead hold this as a cowardly backtrack.

darklajid3• 11 years ago

Windows 8 on the desktop was objectively terrible.

No, it wasn't. It isn't.

(I liked the improvements in 8.1 but that blanket statement from you is false)

engendered4• 11 years ago

Yes. It was. It is. This disagreement by you is false.

See, we can both do that. Fun.

However in my case I'm supported by this very development, where Microsoft is essentially backtracking based upon enormous customer resistance and a backlash.

zamalek5• 11 years ago

No, it wasn't. It isn't.

Disclaimer: Emphasis on SUBJECTIVE before you indicate my opinion is wrong because you have a different opinion. That's pretty-much what subjective means. I thought HN was smarter than this.

Agreed, it's subjective. This is change aversion, not loss aversion. Humans don't like change, even if it is good for them.

People don't like Windows 8 UI because it was a change, and they don't like that they are changing it back. The Windows 8 interface was scientifically superior[1] to the old one: people just didn't like the change. The Windows 10 one is closer to the older interface, people just don't like it because it's change.

The big interaction areas (including the infinite one at the bottom left for the start menu) provided good mouse control. People would have found the keyboard control far superior if they had taken the 10 minutes to learn it, instead of complaining.

Something is not "objectively terrible" if at least one person like it and, including myself, I know people who like the Win8 interface. I haven't tried Win10 yet but I'll probably like the interface because Microsoft are terrific at interface design.

The only thing that Microsoft get wrong is that people don't like their cheese being moved. The Windows 7 interface was good, the Windows 8 interface was good and so will be the Windows 10.

The very reason that people praise Apple interface design is because they keep feeding you the same junk over and over again and you all love it, the innovation there is that innovation is avoided in order to not rile up change aversion.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law

Mikeb85• 11 years ago

Windows 8 on the desktop was objectively terrible.

Not a chance. IMO, not only was the the best Windows from a technical perspective, I quite liked the interface. I use Linux mostly for philosophical and technical reasons (much easier to program in Linux), but Windows 8 has great UI.

wfunction3• 11 years ago

No, it was terrible, unless you installed a classic shell.

guard-of-terra2• 11 years ago

Wi-fi connection dialog painting over keyboard layout indicator immediately disqualifies UI from 'great'. Great UIs are not like this. Maybe it's novel, an eye candy, but not great.

Springtime• 11 years ago

I could go on about the things I strongly disliked (hated, frankly) about the changes to the desktop after I first installed 8.1. An enormous amount of customization was removed from the Appearance and general UI, the ability to change File Type icons and add custom context menu commands was removed [1], the Ribbon UI is the standard File Explorer toolbar and unchangeable without additional hacks [2], and more.

They dumbed down the desktop from a customization perspective and it was most annoying, and that's before the removal of the Start menu and addition of hotcorners and other Metro/Modern features.

[1] See Types for a tool that brings this feature back: http://izt.name/apps/types/

[2] OldNewExplorer for a regular toolbar: http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/170375-oldnewexplorer-make-y...

con-templative• 11 years ago

Windows 8 has great UI.

This usability expert disagrees, and explains his position in detail: http://www.nngroup.com/articles/windows-8-disappointing-usab...

sliverstorm• 11 years ago

... a tactic to undermine people's opinions by ascribing them to unproductive emotional reactions, rather than objective evaluations...

Isn't "liking" Windows 8 less than Windows 7 an emotional reaction?

divegeek• 11 years ago

I like a $20 bill more than a $10 bill. Is that an emotional reaction? No, it's an objective value judgement based on the fact that the former is more useful (roughly twice as useful) as the latter. The word "like" merely expresses preference. It's neutral as to the basis of the preference, which may be emotional, rational or some combination.

LukasMathis7• 11 years ago

I like Windows 8 on the desktop. I agree that it has issues, but I also point that out in the article.

As for "undermining people's opinions": while I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who genuinely gave Windows 8 a chance, and found it severely wanting, I think it's fair to say that there are at least as many who never did, and just joined in on the bashing. Personally, I've seen a number of people who made jokes about Windows 8, but changed their opinions once they actually saw it on my Surface. It's a bit like Windows Vista, which people suddenly quite liked, once it was renamed to Windows 7 :-)

The actual point of the loss aversion thing, though, was to point out how Microsoft failed when it introduced Windows 8. I write this blog for designers, and learning from other people's mistakes is one reason why I write it. Loss aversion is an important concept in design; a conclusion to draw from this is that design changes should occur gradually, and not be forced upon people with a single, sweeping change.

chrismcb• 11 years ago

Windows 8 is horrible on the desktop, I think you even mention this. But then you ignore that and talk about how great it is on the surface. You talked about loss aversion, but I don't see how you tied that in to the windows design. I thought you were going to discuss things that were removed from win 7, like the start button. But it just seems like the topic of loss aversion was another article that you included in this one. The real issue is trying to resolve both a touch screen environment with a keyboard and mouse environment. Win 8 is the former, with win 7 the latter. I don't know much about 10 but it seems to be more of a mouse and keyboard and less of a touch.

stcredzero• 11 years ago

The whole bit on loss aversion (which is a tactic to undermine people's opinions by ascribing them to unproductive emotional reactions, rather than objective evaluations that have people liking Windows 8 less than 7)

I am writing this on a recently purchased Windows 7 Lenovo x220 convertible tablet with a Wacom stylus and a multi-touch screen. (Primarily to use it as a poor man's Cintiq.) With only a few specific failings, Windows 7 seems to be a great OS for such a device. One of the big failings is requiring the user to keep precise track of window focus. The other one is rejection of finger input in contexts where everything but the stylus should be ignored except certain specific exceptions. I've used an AutoHotKey script to compensate for the latter. Other than these (very glaring) few points and others, I think Windows 7 does a very good job of capitalizing on the strengths of the input devices and form factor. I can transition between laptop/workstation, touch-tablet, and Wacom stylus type inputs to best suit the particular context I am working in with reasonable rapidity. As a workman's toolbox, this thing is pretty awesome!

Comparing this to the mess that's Windows 8, it's clear that Microsoft lost a cohesive overall vision for how everything should work together. It's also clear from the glaring problems that they never quite had a cohesive overall vision firmly guiding the whole product in the first place.

A consumer-oriented tablet and a kitchen-sink/swiss-army knife device for coders/creatives are two very different kinds of devices. It's just not clear thinking to try and mix the two. (OS X seems to be facing a similar dilemma.)

higherpurpose3• 11 years ago

And he's probably right. The issue remains that Microsoft is trying to mash two radically different usage paradigms into one.

So the obvious outcome (perhaps not to Microsoft) is that either the desktop mode will get worse, as it tries to get more "tablet-y" or the tablet mode gets worse as it tries to get more "desktop-y" - or both.

The author does say something with which I disagree. He says something along the lines "Windows 8 was the simplest desktop OS". Not it wasn't. Windows 8 - the desktop part - was probably made worse by the removal of the Start Menu, but not better. The Metro part is not "desktop". That's for tablets. So he can't say "the simplest desktop OS", because the whole Metro paradigm was intended for tablets, and it was much worse than the desktop paradigm on the desktop.

skynetv2• 11 years ago

Windows 8 on the desktop was objectively terrible.

spot on and I always thought it will work well on a touch screen tablet.So I got a Windows tablet and boy! was I wrong!!

Its terrible on a tablet too.

WorldWideWayne• 11 years ago

In Windows 10, the only feature I'm looking for is a simple on/off switch like Android has: Allow installation of apps from sources other than the [default app store].

jqm2• 11 years ago

I'm thinking this fellows opinion is a minority one, and his psychology degree must have come in the mail so he probably isn't licensed to diagnosis people in my state.

Not a fan of Windows8. The 10 preview I played with was an absolute step in the right direction.

alyx• 11 years ago

I don't think he realizes that he's critiquing and reviewing a preview OS.

ZenoArrow2• 11 years ago

I don't even think he's reviewing Windows 10 in its current preview form. Look at the picture he uses to show off the start menu, then compare it to the start menu in any other recent Windows 10 demonstration. Notice any differences?

Zancarius3• 11 years ago

Not only that, but he's critiquing it from the perspective of a tablet OS. The majority of the intertial pushback Windows 8 suffered was from desktop users who absolutely did not want a mobile-esque interface on their desktop computer. His usability points are good--from a tablet user's perspective--but it completely misses the point of Windows 10, which is to regain trust from desktop and enterprise users. He further complains that this sort of cultural entrenchment is very much like the pushback Microsoft received between the DOS-to-Windows era--ignoring, of course, that user interaction with a touch UI versus mouse are substantially different. Plus, like you and the poster you replied to, I highly doubt that "tablet mode" in Windows 10 is completely finished.

I get that the author is probably upset with the changes coming in Windows 10 given his nearly exclusive use of a Surface (it's understandable--and also ironic that early on in the post, he mentions that "learning is uncomfortable"), but he's also forgetting that his favored use case is probably in the minority. How many Surface users are there versus enterprise/business/desktop users?

LukasMathis7• 11 years ago

The difference is probably that Microsoft's Windows 10 demonstrations show a manually customized system, while my screenshot shows what it looks like by default, on a newly installed system? Other than that, I'm not sure how I could not be running the current Windows 10 preview, because, as far as I know, it's the only build that supports continuum.

asyncwords• 11 years ago

Actually I think he is on the current Windows 10 build. Right now there's a button at the top-right of the start menu that switches it between full-screen and regular mode. This [1] is what it looks like on my system when full screen. It looks much worse in the article however, because the author only has three apps pinned to their start menu, and the three apps are in their 'medium' size rather than wide or large.

[1] http://i.imgur.com/xKCH1td.png

LukasMathis7• 11 years ago

I'm pointing that out multiple times in the article :-)

guard-of-terra2• 11 years ago

He sounds unicorny towards Windows 8. Nobody ever uses Windows 8 in Metro mode (because no, your PC is not a tablet), and the way which you randomly fall in and out of Metro is atrocious. A lot of things they just did not bother to think about; for example, wi-fi connection dialog overlays keyboard layout indicator, ruining hope of correctly inputting password.

The whole Windows 8 thing is embarrasingly make-believe.

tluyben22• 11 years ago

Exactly. I like Metro & Desktop but whenever the two mix (randomly) is just mad. It's one of the most horrible experiences I currently know in computing and I have no clue why people think this is ok. Smart people at that. It feels like they never tried it themselves after delivering their product. It drives my absolutely bonkers and keeps me from using the Surface more than my macbook air & ipad air. Yes I have to carry around 2 devices but at least I won't just go and break them in 2000 pieces out of frustration. I love the hardware of the Surface3 pro, but for me, exactly that point ruins Windows 8(.1) completely. Is 10 better?

LukasMathis7• 11 years ago

I've never seen the wifi connection issue you describe on my Surface. And I know a bunch of people who, like me, use Windows 8 in Metro mode.

byuu• 11 years ago

Everyone loves consistency, but it really is a fools errand to try and make a universal OS experience. Desktops with keyboards and mice require different design paradigms than touch screens with no physical buttons. Vendors like Microsoft that try and cater to both will simply face an eternal tug of war, and nobody will end up happy.

Very few people on a tablet want to touch-type code for eight hours a day. Very few people on a desktop want to hold their hands in the air tapping their expensive monitors for eight hours a day.

What Microsoft needs to do is produce a clean "OS base" (kernel, drivers) used by both, and then produce two separate products: Windows Office (for desktops) and Windows Metro (for touch devices.) They should have never tried to merge the UIs together.

misuba• 11 years ago

Does 1Password not have a keyboard app for iOS 8? Keyboard apps in general are a pretty good way to get a lot of what people want from multi-window views on touch devices.

jtth• 11 years ago

No. Requires either a password to unlock the keychain or TouchID input. What the article completely misses is that there is window management in iOS. 5-finger pinch and all that. Not to mention the fact that a lot of iOS apps already have 1P integration so you don't have to leave the app.

shadesandcolour• 11 years ago

No they have an extension instead that people have been building into their apps that give one tap access to 1Password on the login screen. I suspect they stayed away from building a keyboard because it's a lot harder to get right, and to risk building a not-so-great keyboard to add one button didn't seem worth it.

tanglesome• 11 years ago

This article presumes that Windows 8.x was a great tablet OS. Since Windows 8 failed on mission one: Getting people to switch from Android and iOS. Objectively some people may love it--I'm not one--but from a business viewpoint it failed on tablets and it was hated on the desktop. The only real surprise isn't that MSFT is returning to an Aero style desktop, it's that it took them so long to do so.

daigoba662• 11 years ago

I think what this article demonstrates, more than anything, is how hard (impossible?) it is to build a single user interface for all possible form factors and keep your users happy.

higherpurpose3• 11 years ago

I actually preferred Windows 10 in the previous build. Now everything in the desktop modem makes me uncomfortable when using it and I think it's slower as well.

Yaa101• 11 years ago

The biggest mistake that Microsoft made was calling it Windows, if they called it Surface instead of only their hardware that way, and kept on selling windows non crippled for the desktop, they probably would have gotten away with it. Nobody cares if they share the same engine under the hood.

ptx2• 11 years ago

You can design user interfaces that work for both, and mouse-driven systems profit from many of the UI changes that make for good touchscreen user interfaces — a clean, simple interaction design and large click targets, for example.

I don't think this is true. With a mouse, you can easily make very precise small movements, so a tiny button positioned right next to where you already have the mouse cursor (perhaps, for example, over another tiny button) is very easy to reach. A tiny button farther away is much harder to hit because you make larger and less precise movements to get there from where you were. The size of the target is not as important as its proximity to the cursor's current position.

On a touch screen, with no relative movement, the situation is pretty much the opposite: If you have tiny touch targets right next to each other, it's very hard to hit the right one, and you can't see if the cursor is positioned correctly before you click. If they're farther apart, it's easier to hit the right one, or at least harder to hit the wrong one. (And obviously larger targets are better.)

bjmarte2• 11 years ago

You can't do both at the same time, true. That doesn't mean that you can't make a system that works well as both at separate times.

SlipperySlope• 11 years ago

Windows 8 was a failure in the enterprise desktop market. Loss aversion meant that corporations did not want to train their staff to use an unfamiliar UI, and the great majority of corporations either postponed upgrades or stayed with Windows 7.

http://bgr.com/2014/02/04/windows-8-adoption-analysis/ http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/300073591/windows-8-...

With Ballmer gone, Windows 10 can return to the familiar Windows 7 look and feel for enterprise desktop purchasers - so hopes Microsoft.

When the iPad and iPhone first dominated their respective markets, Ubuntu was first to respond because Linux evolves faster than Microsoft. The Unity Desktop was the canary in the coal mine with respect to how desktop users would react at the software vendor's natural desire for UI convergence.

Notably, Steve Jobs and Apple, maintained two UIs, one: MAC OS for the desktop and laptops, and two: iOS for touch/mobile. Apple routinely mocked Microsoft, and ignored Ubuntu as non-competitive.

Desktop and Laptop, e.g. keyboard and mouse, multi-monitor, are better for content creation, such as writing software.

Mobile - touch and voice and camera - are better for content consumption, messaging and always-with-you intelligent services, e.g. navigation.

Tim Cook at Apple famously said Windows 8 was converging a ‘Toaster and a Refrigerator’.

I really don't care about Windows as I am a Docker application developer, and routinely use Ubuntu Unity which I grown accustomed to. Good luck Microsoft on Windows 10.

Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

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