How to program computers (kOS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrOg19gzP4

by ah- • 12 years ago

42 46 12 years ago

youtube.com

anfedorov• 12 years ago

Not to be confused with kOS [1]?

1. http://ksp-kos.github.io/KOS_DOC/

justincormack5• 12 years ago

No, its from http://kx.com/ see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_(programming_language)

rco8786• 12 years ago

Feel bad for the guy holding the mic

justincormack5• 12 years ago

Hi, thats me. Last minute issues when organizing a conference...

justincormack5• 12 years ago

This was from the conference I organized a couple of weeks ago. The other videos are also available [1].

Sorry about the screen visibility on this, as it was being live coded it was a bit hard to film.

[1] https://operatingsystems.io/

anoother• 12 years ago

Thanks for organising such a great conference. I missed this talk, so have been looking forward to the videos.

rasz_pl• 12 years ago

Next time organize some microphone stands too :)

lukifer• 12 years ago

It was honestly difficult not to be distracted by that.

justincormack5• 12 years ago

There was another thread about kos a while back [1] which was why I invited Geo to speak, as there seemed like a lot of interest.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8475809

akkartik3• 12 years ago

Looks like what Geo was covering in the first few minutes at least is summarized in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8476633

akkartik3• 12 years ago

I tried to run K, but the link at http://kparc.com requires a password. Is it not generally available yet? Is there a mailing list or IRC channel somewhere?

https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona doesn't run edit.k successfully.

voidiac• 12 years ago

The free version of K can be downloaded at http://kx.com/software-download.php

akkartik3• 12 years ago

But it doesn't look like that version can run edit.k from kparc.com.

So for all practical purposes kx.com and kparc.com are distinct languages/dialects.

Edit: I should clarify that I'm trying to make sense of the specific code in the OP, in particular to play with the views idea (the :: operator). I should have probably put this thread under https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8743325

jodrellblank• 12 years ago

His suggestion is that the cure for code bloat is, basically, codegolf?

codemonkeymike2• 12 years ago

I was thinking the same thing myself. Like your code may be 1/10th the length but you need to find someone with a seemingly rare skill set to maintain it.

geocar12• 12 years ago

But what skill is this?

Is it something we can develop in people? Teach? Practice?

It may be rare that people will do it and invent it on their own, but I know there was a point in my life that I did not want to write code this way, so I know at least one person can change.

cbd19844• 12 years ago

So... is bloat extra features, extra code, or extra resource usage? Is it bloated if you have the same features in fewer lines, or fewer lines with more resource usage?

It's almost as if bloat is a meaningless snarl term with a mostly illusory definition beyond "bad".

pherocity_3• 12 years ago

Meaningless snarl? How DRY is your code, and have any refactoring attempts been made to dry up the code. Do you have unused functions, methods, classes that are there because you think you might need them in the future. Does every binary have all the code for other architectures that are not specific to the current platform of execution. Etc... I could go on with several more examples, but it's the exact opposite of illusionary.

geocar12• 12 years ago

If they're "extra" then they are unnecessary; I define code bloat strictly as redundant code inside the source tree.

Redundant code has performance and resource ramifications: Programs that are bigger load slower (more bytes to pull from disk) and run slower (more trips in and out of cache memory).

Redundant code also has other ramifications: Two modules in the same source tree may attempt similar (or identical) algorithms and miss an opportunity to consolidate. One of them might hide a bug, where the other code path was executed more frequently and the bug fixed.

geocar12• 12 years ago

That's an interesting way to put it.

Yes. It might be.

agentultra2• 12 years ago

Are there any post-scripts or notes from the ensuing conversations? An interesting point was made about humans not understanding programming and then dodges any explanation due to time.

geocar12• 12 years ago

I'm sorry: It wasn't an intentional dodge. It really was getting late in the day.

Only one person was hostile. They wanted to point out that there was no point in writing it all on one line "just to be unreadable".

I told them I thought the readability was improved by having all the words together, but maybe it made it difficult to learn. I noted Arthur had recently annotated edit.k[1] and asked them if that layout made it easier for beginner programmers to learn to read.

I don't think they liked being referred to as beginner programmers because he mentioned that he lectures at Cambridge, so of course they know how to program.

But most people were very encouraging: A lot of people wanted to share something they didn't like about different programming languages, and wanted some ideas about how they can learn more.

I got asked to read some more snippets of code [2] so that people could see this and get a better feel for it.

I got a couple of questions about syntax highlighting and development tools, and if there might be some middle-of-the-road solutions that were terse but not-as-terse.

Also: Beers.

[1] http://kparc.com/edit.k

[2] http://nsl.com/k/sudoku/

agentultra2• 12 years ago

I don't believe they teach rhetoric as a standard component of one's education anymore. The default position is not one of charity but of doubt. A symptom of our time.

I felt as though you were about to make a very critical point and I would very much like to know what it was.

icsa5• 12 years ago

I told them I thought the readability was improved by having all the words together, but maybe it made it difficult to learn. I noted Arthur had recently annotated edit.k[1] and asked them if that layout made it easier for beginner programmers to learn to read.

The issue, for me, is not readability but context. Even a word or two (e.g. cuts, begins, dims) helps greatly to establish the context of the code. Like having a map before hiking.

When I write k/q, I use the same layout as Arthur with the additions of comments for each definition on the same line beyond column 80 or 132. Works well for wide monitors.

E.g.

  c::a$"\n";b::0,1+c;d::(#c),|/-':b                / (c)uts, (b)egins, (d)ims

I've also experimented with folding editors to keep comments above their respective definition while only taking up one line when folded. Some editors (e.g. - jedit) can display the folded text as a tool tip without expanding the fold.

  / Docs
    (c)uts
    (b)egins
    (d)ims
  c::a$"\n";b::0,1+c;d::(#c),|/-':b

I hope this is useful or helpful.

1019142• 12 years ago

Do you think Whitney ever considered using the NetBSD kernel code instead of Linux kernel code? No doubt, small was a priority. Why not BSD?

And why doesn't kx have binaries available for BSD? They have Solaris. Burning questions I have always had. Maybe just based on demand from their licensses?

k and kdb are some of the very few things that keep me interested in programming and computers.

geocar12• 12 years ago

kOS doesn't use the Linux kernel code. It supports a few of the same syscalls:

clone, execve(!), epoll_create, epoll_ctl, epoll_wait, dup2, stat, rename, unlink, getcwd, chdir, fstat, getdents, open, close, read, write, ftruncate, mmap2, munmap, ioctl, gettimeofday, socket, bind, connect, listen, acccept, socketpair, setsockopt

execve just runs another k interpreter (regardless of what you tell it to do) though, so it can just be used to run more k programs.

1019142• 12 years ago

I recall seeing a solictation on the kOS website for people who could get a Linux kernel down to a certain size. I presumed that meant the intent was to use Linux code; at least I was thinking he would end up getting responses from people with a Linux bias.

But I also recall reading the line "no linux", which really piques my interest. I thought that just meant no Linux userland.

Now I like this project even better!

Sounds like you have access to the kOS source. Lucky you. Enjoy.

How to program computers (kOS)

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