I Wouldn't Hire a Programmer With No Interest in Programming Outside of Work

http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-10-08/no_hire.md#readme

by raganwald • 17 years ago

102 109 17 years ago

mikeryan2• 17 years ago

I agree completely. I built a team of engineers (generally junior devs) all of them had pretty freshly minted degrees and all of them had built something outside of work. This team rocked.

This was the single best bar I ever set for hiring young engineers.

angelbob• 17 years ago

The Hacker News title here is the opposite of the one on the article itself.

boredguy8• 17 years ago

Yeah, I was looking forward to a good contrarian article. But it was worth reading (and right) that hires should come from 'in network'.

raganwald8• 17 years ago

fixed, thanks!

RyanMcGreal• 17 years ago

Perhaps title should be:

> I Wouldn't Hire a Programmer With [No] Interest in Programming Outside of Work

kakooljay• 17 years ago

Paul Graham has a great post about hiring: http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html [Great hackers]

Some other good links: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing... http://www.paulgraham.com/hiring.html

dilap• 17 years ago

On the flip side, how reasonable is it for an employer to claim ownership of outside-of-work code? And how do you evaluate someone who works at such a place -- certainly, that could be a large incentive to avoid extracurricular projects...

raganwald8• 17 years ago

Or an incentive to avoid really strict IP agreements. If an employer asks for ownership of everything you do 24/7/365, what they are saying to you is that when you leave, your portfolio will be a huge blank for the years you are there.

That might be fine if they're prestigious, such as perhaps Google, but you really ought to think about taking a few years off being "public" carefully in the context of ever getting a job or being invited to co-found something...

mikeryan2• 17 years ago

I can't for the life of me remember the term right now. But I believe these issues are usually actually dictated by state law.

I remember vaguely a case based in Texas where the company was able to claim someone's home brewed work as their own.

tessro• 17 years ago

The term you are looking for is "work for hire".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire#Law_of_the_United...

aaronblohowiak2• 17 years ago

This also depends on the state. yay, california for protecting our rights!!

ahlatimer• 17 years ago

As far as I know, those cases are pretty hard to win (in my non-lawyerly observations of the law). It also varies from state to state, I believe.

I've had to sign a couple of documents that said that any work I created, at work or outside, that was in the domain of the company was owned by the company. This company happens to do software engineering, but I'm not particularly scared since my job has absolutely nothing to do with software engineering. I do, however, do "software engineering" outside of the company on my own time. I believe in order to prove that they own the IP to whatever else I produce, they'd have to prove that either I created it on their time, or that I created it using skills or tools I gained while employed there. They'd also get the IP under the work for hire law, if, say, I happened to be hired to produce some piece of IP, but I'd say that's pretty obvious.

natemartin• 17 years ago

That's a very good point. What's the best way to get across to a interviewer that you would love to work on outside projects, but simply were not allowed to?

techiferous12• 17 years ago

I've been at a company that discouraged blogging, so this does happen.

"What's the best way to get across to a interviewer...?"

Just tell them. I wouldn't stress too much about it. If the person hiring you doesn't realize that there are tons of good programmers out there who don't blog, then you may not want to be working for them (i.e., they're newbies).

hyperbovine• 17 years ago

Too bad. If he sits around reading math books in his spare time, you just missed out on an incredible opportunity.

Seriously, I would be supremely interested in at least getting to know him, if not working with him. Actually managing to go off the grid at 5pm every day takes a lot of self-control. I'll bet most of the people reading this couldn't do it (myself included.) My guess is he spends his non-work time doing something enriching, not just swapping the monitor out for the TV.

raganwald8• 17 years ago

If such a person networks enough to have friends recommend him for the job, I'll meet him. If he doesn't network, I'll miss him.

I don't have the patience to sort through thousands of job posting submissions and Indian outsource emails looking for the one incredible opportunity.

cakesy2• 17 years ago

There is no point in just reading maths books. That would be not much different to reading books about celebs. You have to get your hands dirty, start exploring theorems, or even start modelling them in the computer. That would be impressive.

Someone who just reads maths books is not really bragging about much.

UsNThem• 17 years ago

There seems to be a total flaw in this article.This strategy would make sense if you are hiring someone just to code aka pure code monkey. On the contrary it makes sense to hire someone who is "good (tending to) very good" in his 9 - 5 job and then spends time after work creatively pursing other interests. These people have the most wide ranging spectrum of ideas / creative in their thought and just make more interesting co-workers to have !

I find this useful - Many times, I apply my comp sci ideas and solutions to solve other mundane ( non work )problems.

My 2 cents

raganwald8• 17 years ago

How do I go about meeting such people? the flaw in the article I see is that it suggests there is a dichotomy between monster.com and networking. Are there other ways to find qualified people that will locate these brilliant programmers who don't do anything programming-related outside of work?

techiferous12• 17 years ago

You can start by not driving them away. Seriously.

There are a lot of really good programmers who don't tinker or blog in their spare time. If they come across an employer who makes a categorical statement that "their kind" is not employable, do you think they'll even bother to send in their resume?

As another commenter noted, tinkering with programming on the side is a positive indicator, but not tinkering is not a negative indicator. Good programmers notice the logical mistake here, and it is off-putting.

ZeroGravitas• 17 years ago

One possible flaw/getout is that "Conferences. Open source. Blogging. Twitter." are happening more and more during work time.

As is this comment for me.

techiferous12• 17 years ago

Agreed. Consider software design patterns, which were inspired by the (brick-and-mortar) architect Christopher Alexander. That means that someone would have had to stop programming and learn about architecture for this cross-pollination to happen. :)

gaius4• 17 years ago

On the other hand:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html

It's strictly an 8-to-5 kind of place -- there are late nights, but they're the exception. The programmers are intense, but low-key. Many of them have put in years of work either for IBM (which owned the shuttle group until 1994), or directly on the shuttle software. They're adults, with spouses and kids and lives beyond their remarkable software program.

dmoney• 17 years ago

How can one be intense but low-key?

Retric3• 17 years ago

Don't surf the net at work. Don't take long breaks. Don't waste time on useless things. Only show up when you are healthy and well rested. Only work with talented people who get stuff done.

6-7 hours of real work a day x 5 days a week x 48 weeks a year x 7 people can get huge amount of stuff done.

PS: The longer most people are at work each day, the lower percentage of the time they are actually getting stuff done.

smakz• 17 years ago

What I do outside of work is none of my employers business - period. I'm surprised I'm the only one that finds this practice offensive?

For the record I have known many, many engineers who devote themselves 100% passionately to their 9-5 jobs and when they get home, they relax and do other things. These people are the type of people I would hire in my organization in a heartbeat.

I have also known the 'entrepreneurial' type of developers who have side projects and while they are generally good workers, a few of them are more interested in their side project then their actual day job and their work quality has suffered.

Hire the people with the skills and aptitude to do the job, leave their personal lives out of it.

potatolicious• 17 years ago

Mmmm, I interpret this practice a little bit differently.

I wouldn't hire someone who isn't passionate about programming. Many of the people I work with today rarely code outside of work - kids, hobbies, friends, etc. This is okay.

But what you really want is one of the guys who stayed up all night in college to bang out the latest and greatest piece of code. You want the people who genuinely love doing this - because there are twice as many people who slummed their way through CS doing the bare minimum necessary.

I work with both types, and as the former type I cannot stand working with the latter.

bdotdub• 17 years ago

I agree completely. I don't think it should be how many hours you put into a side project or how much time you spend coding something outside of work. It comes down to whether the person really enjoys tinkering with (new) technologies.

It shouldn't matter if you don't code outside of work and it isn't your employers business. But if you do code outside of work, it definitely says a lot about your character and how you regard technology.

My coworker said to me once, "There are those who do technology as a job, and there are those who do it as a passion. We want the latter"

Retric3• 17 years ago

None of the top programmers I know code outside of work. They all have other hobbies and have been coding for long enough that they no longer find it challenging. They enjoy coding, but passion burns out before you truly master software development.

PS: There is a tendency to start doing side projects if there job stops directly involving coding because they start managing people, teaching, or just retire.

skolor2• 17 years ago

You're right: what you do outside of work isn't your employer's business. However, I would not hire a programmer who will not program at home. That's not to say I would expect them to be contributing to so Open Source project, or to be running a side business, but that they can and do put together code in their own time, for their own reasons.

For example, the guy who runs a personal blog, and put together his own widget to display some sort of stat, seems like a good idea. The guy who runs a personal blog, and spends a day (off) hunting down a widget that someone else made, that kind of does what he wants, and costs $20 to use, would not be a good fit.

My view on it is something similar to: I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer. Why would I hire a a programmer who, when he needs a program written for himself, goes and finds someone else's work?

techiferous12• 17 years ago

I've been a programmer professionally for over 10 years and worked with a variety of teams. In my experience, I haven't observed a correlation between tinkering with programming as a hobby and the ability to be an effective employee. From what I've seen, communication skills, interpersonal skills, and the ability to motivate oneself have more impact than hobby programming.

"I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer." -- I see your point, but use your imagination a bit more. Perhaps there are really good mechanics out there who really love being mechanics but at the end of the day want to do something different than work on cars. In other words, you can love something and be good at it without it consuming all of your waking life.

You have to be careful with taking such a hard line. As a developer, I would hesitate to work with you.

EDIT: For the record, I work on lots of side projects outside of work.

earl2• 17 years ago

Maybe because the programmer is an adult and isn't wowed by the prospect of spending more than 5 minutes writing something (s)he can buy for $20?

Also, this is seriously nasty ageism. Once you grow up the same thing will happen to you: significant others, friends, activities, hobbies, pets, kids, etc, most of which don't involve sitting on your ass in front of a computer. In fact, having put 10 years into this industry, I work a lot harder and better at my actual job if I don't spend all my off hours in front of a computer.

gaius4• 17 years ago

The guy who runs a personal blog, and spends a day (off) hunting down a widget that someone else made, that kind of does what he wants, and costs $20 to use, would not be a good fit.

That is probably what the majority of real-world software development consists of, tho'. E.g. is every piece of software you use an absolutely perfect fit for your needs, and if not why haven't you rewritten it? Because that's not a good use of your time.

yardie3• 17 years ago

That is a really bad an strange example of a good programmer. Why should a programmer spend his time and company programming a widget if their is an equivalent that can be bought for cheaper. I'd rather be a programmer that finds the right tool for the job than be one that sees everything as nails.

My mechanic specializes in Asian/Japanese cars. He drives a BMW. The shop next to him specializes in BMWs. He could spend $1000s of dollars to get the special tools and equipment to fix his car. Or he could pop over to his neighbor, borrow 30 minutes of his time. His neighbor has the tools, training and competence to work on his BMW. He does not.

bbsabelli• 17 years ago

Agreed, but I think you missed the point, which is...

If the programmer sitting in front of him for an interview doesn't program outside of work hours, how did he/she get the interview in the first place? His conclusion is that they must have been goofing off at work during the day on open source forums, blogging or using twitter.

csallen2• 17 years ago

Hire the people with the skills and aptitude to do the job, leave their personal lives out of it.

Fact is, it's not always easy to determine the skill and aptitude levels of a prospective hire. Even if you can accurately pinpoint these things, a high skill level alone doesn't always translate into hard work as an employee. You can never know exactly how things are going to work out in the end, so your best bet is simply trying to raise your chances of making a good decision.

When it comes to coding, it's safe to say that the more time one spends doing it, the better one gets. There are tens of thousands of people who enjoy coding as a hobby, so why hire someone who doesn't?

brown9-22• 17 years ago

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered discrimination and illegal.

Judging passion is a different thing, but anyone reading this article and agreeing with the sentiment of it better be really careful about how they act about this during the interview process.

techiferous12• 17 years ago

"judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered...illegal."

No, not in this case. This is relevant to the job. An employer can easily ask, "Do you have a software project portfolio?" or "What's your experience in python, professional or otherwise?" It's very much on-topic.

edmccaffrey• 17 years ago

> I am not a lawyer, but I believe that judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered discrimination and illegal.

Discrimination is legal except for the few specific cases outlined in the various civil rights, equal pay, and age discrimination acts. Might as well take two minutes to research before making these types of posts.

aaronblohowiak2• 17 years ago

Working 6 days a week with 60-hour weeks, how is a startup employee supposed to do anything other than chores and the occasional date outside of work?

Maids, cooks, personal shoppers?

henriklied• 17 years ago

I must say, I agree. Having _no_ interest in programming outside work begs the question: Why is it your day job?

Although I don't work on too many spare projects on my own, I read a whole lotta websites relating to programming (this site, for instance..) and catch up on relevant news and technologies.

If the title was "No, I wouldn't hire a programmer who isn't cranking out code every hour he's awake", I'd definitely disagree. But, in my opinion, in this business, you really need to know what's going on. And unless you're in a research position at your day job, I'm guessing your boss wouldn't want you to spend working hours studying every interesting story on HN. Ergo, you'd read up on your spare time.

That's not to say you shouldn't have hobbies. A three year old Norwegian study [1] shows that IT-engineers have the largest burnout-rate of all occupations. It's important to relax, find something that makes you feel disconnected (my love for the moment is mountain biking, but whatever floats your boat).

[1] Google translate of Norwegian article about burnout-rates in the IT-industry: http://bit.ly/it-burnout

turtle4• 17 years ago

You ask "Why is it your day job?"

Because I spend the largest part of my life at my day job, and want to work on something I am passionate about during that time. However I am also a person with many additional interests and desires, such as playing sports, reading, art, and music and since each of those are deep areas of interest themselves, they all occupy parts of my non-working life, while being balanced with my family.

There are plenty of people who feel this way. They are well balanced individuals who are effective at their jobs, and passionate about them. But there are only so many hours in a day. Working isn't just about time spent coding. It is about working well in a team, and relating with your customers, and understanding social issues as well as technical ones. Someone who only codes is simply more likely to be underdeveloped in one of those areas.

It is just a stupid qualifier. If you are hiring a marketer, would you only hire someone who telemarkets from home on their off time because they enjoy it? That's just stupid.

Someone who has side projects at home -might- be a more experienced developer. Or they could be a poorly rounded individual. Someone who doesn't work on side projects at home -might- be non-passionate. Or they might be very passionate and effective, and simply more well rounded. To say you would always require one or the other is just dumb.

azanar• 17 years ago

This post actually presents two premises.

The first, that programmer hacking on their own projects, I agree is a very positive indicator. If they don't, it may or may not be a negative indicator, depending on the circumstances. However, I've found the combination of someone who really has the itch to hack in their own time, and that same someone who honestly can't find the time is rare. More often, after enough prodding, they'll admit they just aren't that interested, and that it is "just a job like any other".

The second, that selecting candidates based upon social connections is an optimal strategy, I approach with some caution. This is not to say that it isn't the best way for raganwald to do things, but I have seen people develop insurmountable confirmation biases simply because someone they know gave a candidate the thumbs up. A lackluster interview performance wasn't enough to overcome this; poor performance once hired wasn't enough either. The trust the hirer puts in their network to suggest the right people must be for the right reasons. This, in a person's profession network, is rather rare. More often, two people knowing one another is the basis for a referral, rather than what the two people know about one another. This works ok in situations where the primary goal is to find a good social fit, but it is like throwing dice when determining if the candidate is capable of performing the required duties. In a lot of cases, both parties just don't care; the referral is a social, not economic or professional, transaction. Luckily for both parties, many companies don't care that much either. Mediocrity is not really affected by the introduction of more mediocrity, so neither party ends up with a tarnished image. This sort of politicing sucks.

My perspective on this is much the same as Joel Spolsky's -- or at least the perspective he used to have. If a particular candidate comes pre-recommended by someone, I'm really hesitant to know that. If I'm the person doing the recommending, I always wonder whether I'm doing it because this person is a genuinely good fit, or if I am just feeling the pressure to be a good friend. If I was both introduced to him and one of the one's vetting him, I'd be really concerned that my bias is way too strong for me to make an honest, objective decision. Hiring people based on a blind resume submission sucks, too, and I don't know of any other alternatives. But I worry we have a blind spot to the biases of this method of finding candidates, simply because we want to believe the best in everyone we know.

raganwald8• 17 years ago

Elsewhere, Giles Bowkett described hiring through networking, HN, blogging, twitter, and so forth as being "inbreeding" and would produce "retarded" results.

I <3 Giles!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raganwald/3488885664/

p.s. Giles was positively kind in comparison to discussions elsewhere. It really shows that individual communities do have a very strong cultural bias, which I think supports your point and his:

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9s5pd/no_i_woul...

lackbeard• 17 years ago

I worked with an extremely smart and productive programmer who only worked M-F 7-4, and never did any programming outside of work. Any company would be lucky to have him.

cakesy2• 17 years ago

Ok, so you are no good at statistics (your anecdote means very little), why should we trust you to judge a programmers ability.

You know how hard it is to actually measure how productive a programmer is, he could be writing absolute crap, that just gets the job done. The projects he has could be very simple.

And someone smart might just be someone who can switch a computer on, to a lot of people.

techiferous12• 17 years ago

As a developer, I take it as a red flag whenever I hear a prospective employer categorically state "I would never hire a programmer that X."

First of all, it's a heuristic. If a programmer doesn't program outside of work, it could be that they are not passionate and don't take the time to keep their skills sharp. It could also be that they are a polymath genius, and simply can't function unless their life is full of a variety of interests.

Hiring heuristics are appropriate when there are too many applicants. For the sake of efficiency, you need some way to narrow down the huge stack of applications. However, if you are having a hard time finding developers, that's not the time to use heuristics.

It tells me something about a prospective employer's problem-solving skills and imagination when they would not consider interviewing someone for a single reason, such as not having a blog. That's like being a one-issue voter.

Also, these heuristics have a way of confirming themselves. The person who hires only programmers who do X will probably end up finding decent programmers anyway, but they will be oblivious about the ones that got away.

swombat2• 17 years ago

What if the employer says: "I would never hire a programmer that sucks"?

Seems pretty reasonable to filter out people who are bad at their job.

So your argument is really one of breadth - breadth of the filter. From my point of view as a programmer, I certainly do believe that programming outside of your job is an extremely good predictor of passion, which is a great predictor of ability as a developer, particularly for younger people. I might consider a 40-year old who doesn't program for fun anymore, maybe. I wouldn't bother interviewing a 25 year old who never saw a point in coding outside of university/work.

techiferous12• 17 years ago

"I certainly do believe that programming outside of your job is an extremely good predictor of passion"

Yes, I think that's the point. Is this a good predictor? If you are a young, single male, then maybe so. There are many other reasons besides lack of passion that can prevent a passionate programmer from programming outside of work.

msluyter• 17 years ago

I would if I could, but my hands, back, and eyes can't take it.

I do a lot of technical reading instead.

tolmasky• 17 years ago

The answers to this are so ridiculous. "Well too bad because as it turns out when he goes home he cures cancer, with paper and pencil!"

Is it really necessary to explain that the point is that this person clearly isn't passionate about his work, as demonstrated by having zero outside interest in the subject. Clearly if he is a genius and has some amazing reason this doesn't apply.

More importantly the point of this article wasn't so much that he wouldn't be hired out of spite or something, but that he would never even get to know these people and thus get a chance to interview. This is of course obviously true and has nothing to do with "privacy" concerns. If you are an active member of the community, then you will inevitably meet other people in this field and get opportunities that just won't show up in the classifieds, there's nothing controversial about it.

maxklein• 17 years ago

Well, maybe he would not want to work with you either? Did you consider that? That you may be so one-dimensional that your programmer with slightly more diverse interests would find you and your job a boring place!

raganwald8• 17 years ago

I wouldn't be offended at all if anyone finds my personal life too boring and one-dimensional for their tastes.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raganwald/3983773743/in/set-721... http://www.flickr.com/photos/raganwald/15825489/in/set-72157... http://www.flickr.com/photos/raganwald/525184427/in/set-7215...

wallflower• 17 years ago

You don't mess around. Thanks for being an excellent example of an adventurist doing activities where people don't care what you do for a living.

5.0 level rock climbing. I'd be more impressed though if you were a trials rider :)

protomyth• 17 years ago

A friend of mine always asked the following question in interviews: "What was the last program you wrote that wasn't for work or a programming assignment?" He just wanted an answer that wasn't "I have never programmed just for myself".

Every other craftsman will use their talents for their own purposes, so it is generally a good sign if programmers do the same.

indra• 17 years ago

I understand the employer's point of view: Such mono-track, passionate programmers will be easy to exploit to work long hours and weekends.

robotron• 17 years ago

I think your post sums it up. I can't imagine someone wanting to actually hire one-dimensional droids except for this.

heresyforme• 17 years ago

Watch what questions you ask about a persons personal life in an interview. Depending on how and what you ask, you could set yourself up for legal action.

gorbachev• 17 years ago

I guess he's not hiring a whole lot of people with families then.

When I was 20 I had a LOT of free time in my hands. I spent some of it doing programming. I'm no longer 20, and I have two kids who require near constant attention from my wife and I and I'll be damned if I spend any of my scarce free time doing programming. I have far better ways to spend my time these days. Mainly sleeping.

yardie3• 17 years ago

Agree. When I was younger I built this monster ESX server for all my programming whims. Now, the server is still there, but it's primary job is a NAS for my kids' DVD collection. I sit in front of it maybe once a week. Most of my hobby programming is now done at work. Friday afternoons are set aside to experimental stuff that may or may not be related to work.

plinkplonk2• 17 years ago

I've seen really good programmers(at ThoughtWorks for example) who didn't code at home at all. If you have an interesting job that leads you to code eight hours a day (typically the case at TW, if you find enterprise sw, agile, XP etc interesting), I can understand why you wouldn't want to code at home. If you are coding a solid eight hours a day, you are probbaly exhausted when you get home and don't want to see more code on the weekends. Playing with your kids beats coding any day.

That said, would I be inclined a bit more toward someone who had say Open Source contributions? Of course, it would be foolish not to.

I guess most of the debate is centred around the binary nature of the decision - will hire/ won't hire. Move to a more flexible non-binary judgment and it looks more reasonable.

Personally, I am open to hire both kinds of devs, but I'd prefer someone who had a side project / Open source cred etc.

cracki• 17 years ago

8 hours inevitably leads to exhaustion.

7 hours is the limit, for me and many others.

fnid• 17 years ago

On the contrary side, it is interesting that this opinion is held of hackers, but would be ridiculous to consider for other fields. Imagine expecting an admin assistant to do personal admin assistant projects at home, or a bus driver to drive around just for the heck of it.

It makes me curious which fields lend themselves well to having fun time outside work doing the same things. I can imagine car mechanics tinkering with their own cars after work. I can imagine chefs cooking for their friends.

Do sports commentators call out shots at home or at the local sports bar when they are off work? How about journalists? Do they write for fun?

plinkplonk2• 17 years ago

"On the contrary side, it is interesting that this opinion is held of hackers, but would be ridiculous to consider for other fields"

Well Imagine a musician who never played except when he was on stage. Or a golfer who only plays at championships.

The key is (more than whether one works at home or not, which I think is a mistaken emphasis) is to be able to see output so you can judge its quality. You could ask a musician auditioning for an orchestra to play a few pieces or a juggler to actually juggle 5 clubs. The problem is that there isn't a coding equivalent.

Most developers who code only at work can't show you any of the resultant code. An interview is too short a time to ask someone to code anything meaningful. Having some independent work he can show makes evaluating a candidate much easier.

yardie3• 17 years ago

If you are a professional it just might be that. A lot of artists and athletes have insurance contracts that require them to only do work when they are working. This is why you'll rarely hear of a basketball player doing a pickup game. A sprained ankle or blown knee off the court and they can, really, lose everything. Most of them do enjoy the game so they'll play in disguise or an alias.

When millions of dollars are on the line, sometimes, your passion can become your prison.

zumda• 17 years ago

These people actually do that!

My mother is a "admin assistant" at work, and she does "admin assistant" work at home for two clubs she's part of. And a month ago a bus driver I know drove me and some relatives around for 6 hours just for the heck of it. And journalists do write for fun, ever heard of blogs? And my brother as a mechanical engineer recently fixed some headphones (they were cheap for 20 bucks or so, so he could have bought new ones easily).

While it seems that only hackers do that, everyone does it more or less as long as they are passionate about their jobs. They just aren't as visible as the hacker crowd that develops Linux as a hobby.

known• 17 years ago

Is this rule plausible for other professions viz lawyers, doctors?

hal10001• 17 years ago

So what? To any developer concerned that you'll be ostracized by a potential employer because you don't have an interest in programming outside of work, let me give you a piece of advice. Employers who think they can define your work ethic on the job based upon what you do as a hobby outside of work, are some of the worst people to work for in this industry. If you want to let your hobby be your work, then more power to you, but you are in the vast minority. To everyone else, take heart in knowing that just because a few managers feel this way, it doesn't make it some industry standard we must all follow like sheep. Programmers -- go home at night, and be home. Enjoy your family, your friends, other hobbies, recreational pursuits, the environment... do what you enjoy in life. More than likely you'll be the group of developers that actually brings new, fresh insights to the table, because you're not living in a box coding 24/7, but you're living in the real world.

Scott_MacGregor• 17 years ago

While the interviewer/writer might seem a little flippant or lacking in eloquence with his description of the event, in the long run he would probably be making the best decision for the company.

It seems like when he interviews he likes to hire those with a higher level of dedication to (more love of) coding.

Perhaps as an interviewer his real concern here isn’t so much what someone does in their off-time, but rather he looks for a good fit with the rest of the team. If the current engineers are all about the never-ending love of coding and the new hire was not, the overall cohesion and possibly productivity of the group may suffer. “Ducks of a feather...”

There are complaints all over the web about new hires who are perceived as slackers, or a know nothings, being hired on in hardworking departments (at good companies) and sometimes even being promoted up and up the ladder to the chagrin of the current employees. It can cause deep animosity towards the company and increased turnover of good people. Perhaps you have worked somewhere where this has happened and experienced it first-hand, or know someone who has.

TrevorJ• 17 years ago

I think in any field that requires thought, you are much better off hiring people who are just plain interested in thinking.

That is to say, if somebody is a lifelong learner and has passion for it, I'd hire them way before somebody who lives, breathes and eats a particular language 24/7.

People who are interested in the world around them spend their lives increasing a well of knowledge that comes in handy in remarkable ways, not to mention the fact that they know how to learn what they need to know, when they need to know it.

I Wouldn't Hire a Programmer With No Interest in Programming Outside of Work

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