Self Employed CV

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8226643

by sudorank • 12 years ago

98 40 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

How do you guys and girls go about adding self employed periods to your CV?

Are they a help or hindrance in tech?

I've got quite a few periods in mine and are updating it at the moment. By reading some message boards it appears self employment is a really bad thing!

Any thoughts on how to market self employment?

Thanks :)

Tloewald3• 12 years ago

Build your CV around projects not employers (I was taught this style of CV writing when I worked at Andersen Consulting (aka Accenture) and it's one of a handful of things from that time that stuck with me). Also try to state clearly and concisely what the project was and what your role was. AC also suggested anonymizing employers -- e.g. "medium sized construction company" which is a wise thing to do if the work is not public.

sudorank2• 12 years ago

Thanks, I did read about more "functional cv" types where you talked about your roles and responsibilities.

Sounds like a possible plan.

To be honest it's quite frightening writing a CV again! Haven't had to do it for a while!

mgkimsal• 12 years ago

I advocate people keep it up to date all the time - well, every 6-12 months. Spend 15-30 minutes adding achievements/projects on the resume when it's still relatively fresh in your mind, vs trying to remember stuff 5 years later.

If you have a habit of keeping a resume updated, and it's public, it's less of a signal to current employers as well too. I've heard many people say they don't ever want to public/post a resume because their current employer might find it. If you keep it public and posted all the time, as more of a "here's the great stuff I'm doing at XYZ", there's no 'signal' to be inferred.

That said, I know that wouldn't necessarily fly in ever industry, but... that's more social convention than anything else. If 90% of people behaved that way, that would be the 'new norm'.

thenipper• 12 years ago

Be careful with functional resumes. A lot of recruiters/hiring managers don't care for them. Myself included. They can work, but I also sometimes they can be used to 'hide' inexperience. Disclaimer: I don't do tech recruiting so take all of this with a grain of salt. I have reviewed resumes for technical/'social innovation' positions but I tend to focus more on non computery roles.

That being said, having a nice list of what your good at is great. Also I really recommend having a summary at the top that is almost like a mini cover letter. Target it towards the job you're applying for for example:

Sudorank is a developer with experience developing mid-sized systems in ruby on rails hooking into legacy COBOL backends. Lauded for his/her ability to mentally parse XML, he/she can manually code systems using a magnetic needle. Comfortable leading teams Sudorank has had experience working a variety of fields, from bio-med to lifestyle startups.

Keep in mind is that you want to save the recruiter/HM time. They might be looking at 100 of these. Lead with why you're kickass.

Another handy trick is keep a plan text version for if you end up applying through any automated systems. Source control is your friend here.

jeremysmyth• 12 years ago

This is great advice. I'd go even further and say it's about achievements. Make your CV about specific highlights in which you can justify your involvement.

Once you've passed the stage where you're applying for entry-level positions, nobody really cares about "My duties involved..." style entries, or "I participated in..." or "I was involved with..."

Rather, it's all about "I designed and wrote four modules for XYZ product, three involving the internal messaging layer and a fourth interfacing with a legacy system, and performed code reviews for other subsystems," or "I was front-line support for XYZ product during its first high-growth period, during which I identified and categorized the most common issues and wrote several procedures to resolve them".

This style might only represent 20% of your actual work around that time, but it gives your potential employers something concrete to latch onto, and to an extent it lets you guide the course of the interview in ways you couldn't otherwise. It also lets you gloss over differences in employed/self-employed status because it shows you had a consistent work ethic (and presumably a consistent set of results) regardless of where you got your income at that time.

kngspook• 12 years ago

I'd be really interested in seeing some example resumes in this style, if you have any...

geekam• 12 years ago

AC also suggested anonymizing employers

This may not work in certain jobs where they demand your credentials and want to check them by calling/emailing.

Tloewald3• 12 years ago

There's nothing to prevent you from providing references and so forth off-line. Doing this shows professionalism -- you don't blab about client internals on a document you distribute to random people.

garrickvanburen• 12 years ago

This. I've also found this to be a nice way to tailor past experiences to new opportunities in a way that listing employers (or lack thereof) doesn't support.

rak• 12 years ago

Does anyone have an example of making a CV like this? It sounds like something I could benefit from.

1337biz• 12 years ago

Do you have some consulting based examples on that approach? Would love to see that.

victorstanciu2• 12 years ago

There's nothing wrong with self employment in and of itself. I've been self employed for many years now, and this hasn't stopped me constantly receiving jobs offers. Of course, I've also been employed for many years before that, and that probably counts too.

I think self employment only looks bad when it's interspersed with very small periods of employment, from a couple of months to six months. Having long periods of unemployment, followed by short bursts of a couple of months here, three months there could maybe be interpreted as a sign that the candidate has a problem with keeping jobs, and that there are probably good reasons for that.

Having only ever been self employed could also be seen as a bad sign. Having never worked within a company, maybe the candidate has no teamwork skills, cannot work within a hierarchy, cannot keep a fixed schedule, etc.

I can't think of any other situations when self employment would look bad.

sudorank2• 12 years ago

Ah okay, I might be in luck then because I do have some employment periods too.

Thanks.

fivedogit• 12 years ago

May I ask how employers are even finding out about you to give you these "constant" job offers? I've been a solo project guy for a long time and feel like employers are unaware that I even exist.

I'm going to guess your resume has a Google/Amazon/Facebook name brand on it somewhere.

victorstanciu2• 12 years ago

LinkedIn and personal recommendations mostly. I have absolutely no "name brands" on my resume (I stay well away of large companies actually), but have a somewhat productive network I've nurtured over the years, which is where I also get 90% of my freelance projects. I also happen to live in Romania, where there's no way to go hungry if you are an even remotely competent developer or other type of IT professional, because the demand outweighs the supply by a huge margin here. Living in the capital (Bucharest) also helps, since the vast majority of IT companies have their offices here.

graeme2• 12 years ago

Which forums? Not everyone uses the term the same way. I stopped saying "self-employed" and started calling myself "entrepreneur".

When I said self employed, people either heard "unemployed" or "marginal freelance person, barely made ends meet". When I switched to entrepreneur, people heard "successful businessman". The change was uncanny.

Now, my activities didn't change. So the questions to ask are:

  1. How did the people complaining about self-employed mean the term?
  2. Does that match what you do?
  3. How should you brand it so that the person hiring you understands it correctly?

I never had a problem with other entrepreneurs or managers. We spoke the same language. I even got some unsolicited job offers when working for myself, which never happened before.

In general, I think it's seen as a positive thing, as long as you're talking about the kind of self-employment we mean here on Hacker News. Fairly lucrative, manage your own schedule, no shortage of clients, but more overhead and uncertainty than a job and a need to focus on non-technical stuff. The latter two points explaining why someone might want a job instead of self-employment.

rupert_murdaaa• 12 years ago

This is solely my opinion, but whenever I hear people call themselves "entrepreneur" I immediately think "C student in high school with few tangible skills but is sick of working as a cook at Denny's and thinks calling themselves an entrepreneur will lend them some weird street cred because they heard Dre call himself an entrepreneur".

At least being simply self-employed is easily explained away by just wanting to do some freelance work or consulting for a few months or whatever.

graeme2• 12 years ago

I think a lot depends on how the person says it too. If I had said "entrepreneur" when I just started out, and things were shaky, people would have had a different reaction.

Avalaxy2• 12 years ago

I just say "I run my own company". It's technically true (I even hired someone) and it is looked upon much more highly than when I just say "I'm a freelancer".

onion2k• 12 years ago

Anecdotally, I've found it difficult to persuade potential employers that I won't just quit after six months and start another business. It's a legitimate concern on their part - if you're someone who likes the challenge and (potential) reward of running your own business then you're less likely to stay in a salaried job for as long as someone else. Employing someone should really be a long term commitment from both parties.

Secondly, it's quite hard if you failed. I learnt a huge amount about running a company, building software, even about who I am, when I've been doing startups, but ultimately the main thing I've demonstrated is that I can put a lot of time and energy in to projects that fail. I didn't have the insight to change what needed to change to ensure success or to walk away earlier to limit my losses. Those aren't great things to show people.

All in all, being self-employed does make it harder to get a job afterwards. If you recognise why though, you can defend yourself against those issues that employers will have.

seren• 12 years ago

On a more optimistic note, from an employer point of view, I would prefer if you had made some mistakes in the past on your own funds, and hopefully, learned a good lesson in the process, and would not reproduce them with the company money.

PaulHoule• 12 years ago

Working for employers you can also put a lot of time and energy into projects that fail too.

Iftheshoefits• 12 years ago

If "employing someone should really be a long term commitment from both parties," then employers need to start treating it as such again. Right now this is simply one among many, many imbalances between employees and employers: the loyalty demand is, in my view, a one-way street.

Employees are not to expect long-term loyalty style commitments from employers these days. Training, retirement investment packages, career paths and other intangibles that make a long-term commitment at a single employer potentially a good move don't exist anymore (at least not in any significant numbers).

Long-term investment with a single employer carries risks for the employees: opportunity costs, skill stagnation or over-specialization, far lower long-term compensation without internal "job hopping" up the management ladder (and even then it's not nearly the risk-free move it was even 20 years ago, let alone 30 or 40), etc. Employers don't acknowledge these risks the employees take, though, and simply demand loyalty without wanting to make an investment of their own other than a begrudgingly given compensation package (that is often below the actual value an employee provides).

Of course it's not fair; and that's just the way it is--it's something serial entrepreneurs and "job hoppers" should just be prepared to deal with.

kybernetyk• 12 years ago

I don't want to have a conventional job ever. So I don't have to worry about my CV.

cik• 12 years ago

IMHO - which doesn't mean much, it's really a combination of industry and geography. And of course, I fully realize that what I'm writing below is based on generalizations that I've witnessed/experienced.

For example, here in Canada there's very little risk tolerance, regardless of what people tell you. You see it in the ways companies raise funds, are valued, and even the execution points. Being 'self-employed' can be a hindrance, especially in marketing. On the other side 'Founding X company - building the overall business to over $YY in revenue' is a positive spin on the same result.

On the other hand, discussing a project-based approach looks VERY good. At that point you're a consultant, rather than a contractor or freelancer. Here, that resonates better, in that people go 'ah, well paid expert'. This in turn means that you can pivot the discussion around to project successes, the values you've learned working on multiple projects, etc.

But most importantly, don't underestimate the value of the cover letter - which I used to believe no one reads. If you can explain your passion to join organization X (for some specific reason), then effectively you're priming your resume reader. That helps you positively change the conversation - a brilliant technique from behavioral economics.

Good luck!

barrystaes• 12 years ago

For me, as a programmer, having a (1 employee = me) business / being self-employed alongside my study and some jobs has helped in building my CV.

On one hand it gave me a lot of first-hand experience with a lot of things, and second it shows that i'm not keen on sitting on my hands.

ffn• 12 years ago

You could always change your title from something like "CEO of XYZ Co.", "Founder at Acme Inc.", or "Chairman of Dog Corp" to something less ambitious like "lead developer", "marketing manager", or even just "web developer".

Sure, occasionally, you might get employers in the valley who (claim) they care a lot about your personal growth, but from my experience outside the tech world, plenty of employers would much rather just have a dull but trustworthy tool who gets the job done without fail to someone incredibly smart, unscrupulous, and motivated. To these people (which I will venture to say is the majority of small-business owners), your ambition is scary to them, so you're better off not coming off as being ambitious.

TL;DR: best way to market self-employment? Don't. Instead market it as regular employment where you had a lot of responsibilities.

mrvladnov• 12 years ago

I'd create it around the job that you're trying to get. If an employer is looking for a candidate, often the don't have the time to look deeply into each resume coming in.

If your resume has traits that stand out for the position available, it'll catch the employers eye and increase your chances of getting an interview.

I'd recommend writing about projects you did that relate to the job posting combined with measurable facts about the results.

Hope that helps!

erik123• 12 years ago

I tend to show my github account. Nobody asks any further questions about ability after that.

simi_• 12 years ago

Why the throwaway?

vlokshin• 12 years ago

If you go self-employed and take it seriously, you shouldn't be thinking about a CV/resume :)

codingdave• 12 years ago

Sure you would - maybe not for cold calling new prospects, but when I was doing consulting, I would get asked for my resume as part of my potential customer's due diligence process on me.

And those people would actually read it, because they already knew me and were trying to understand my background to decide whether or not to bring me on to a project. Unlike recruiters or hiring managers who are often just looking for a reason to throw a resume in the trash to thin out their crowd of applicants.

philjackson• 12 years ago

http://philcv.com. I just mark the roles as '(freelance)'.

mcv• 12 years ago

Despite my CV clearly stating that I'm self-employed, and which period I've been self-employed, many recruiters still seem to think my own company is someone else's company. I have no idea why.

In any case, it doesn't seem to cause any problems. I work as freelancer, so it makes every kind of sense that I have my own company.

8ig8• 12 years ago

I'm trying to do the same after ten years of running a web agency. I had some successes, but I also made plenty of mistakes along the way since I was learning while doing. Ultimately I couldn't make it into a viable business.

At first, it felt like a hindrance, a decade-long black dot that I wanted to somehow hide. Now I'm proud of the period -- provided jobs, mentored, made things, etc. -- so it is easier to talk about.

I'm not going the hide that period. I'm going to be frank about it once I hit the streets. I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot of hard lessons, lessons that should help in whatever my new capacity is.

So I guess my advice is to be honest about those self-employed periods. They are what they are.

reboog711• 12 years ago

I'm not self employed; I am a small business owner. Start a formal business for consulting [or whatever].

That way you aren't self employed; you were employed at Sudorank LLC or something similar.

I haven't maintained a personal resume/CV is years; and have no plans to do so again. I do not share past client names with other potential clients. Recruiters don't know how to handle me, however it hasn't hurt my business.

For proof of skill people can review my books, articles, blog posts, or StackOverflow profile.

I assume my first meetings with clients are very different than interviews [although a few have had an interview-like feel].

keithalexander• 12 years ago

been dealing with this for a long long time. Until I learned how to fudge a resume or CV correctly(doesn't take much effort), I really struggled and lost out to what I called the, "certified stupid", or "the Educated/indoctrinated incompetents". Take a google search through people busted for fake CV's, many of whom held VERY high positions at prestigious Universities yet it took decades and decades to catch the few who've been caught. And we have a commander in chief who's 'cv' is either false, or the biggest joke in history. So my friend, plan ahead, purchase a number of throwaway cellphones(TracPhones are less than $5!) and label each with a name, company, gender, etc. and use those for your 'references'. Depending on what kind of work you seek you may also want to research what people who left jobs under a NDA have to do when trying to list previous work experience.

joeyspn• 12 years ago

I've been intern, employed, freelance, self-employed, founder, consultant, and I haven't had any problem marketing myself. In fact, I had an online profile in one of those job seeking sites, and I had to take it off cos recruiters and headhunters were continuously calling me with job offers (but I was happily self-employed as stated in the CV!).

I think it is more about your achieved goals, projects and skills, and less about who have you been working for. If I were you, I'd just concentrate my efforts in building projects where you show off your skills (blog/portfolio, github, etc...). IMO this can be more powerful than a CV.

Avalaxy2• 12 years ago

Of course I added it to my resume! All the companies I interviewed at (all small companies of <10 people though) thought it was a huge bonus for me. Even though I'm only a medior developer I have proven that I can work independently and responsibly. It also gave me a lot of cool projects to show.

That's how I did it; I just demo'd them the coolest apps I built and explained why they were cool (google tweeted about it, won the imagine cup with it, got covered by major news sites, etc.).

Self Employed CV

Related Stories