How I work as a digital nomad

http://typicalprogrammer.com/how-i-work-as-a-digital-nomad/

by gregjor • 12 years ago

87 111 12 years ago

jawngee3• 12 years ago

I kind of do this, though I hate the digital nomad moniker.

I used to split time between NYC and Vietnam. NYC for client work, Vietnam for bootstrapping my publishing platform (shameless plug our eat your own dog food first magazine is coming out soon: http://vimeo.com/100580125). However, for the last year, I've been in Vietnam full time, giving up my apartment in NYC and "relocating" to Nevada for tax purposes. I did this partly because I was getting closer to finishing up the first phase of the publishing project, but also because I found out I was going to be a father ;)

The hardest part is keeping work coming in at a constant enough rate. In NYC I was always booked solid, 24/7, but in Vietnam it comes and goes in spurts. Partly because some of the work I did in NYC has hardware requirements that can't be met here in Vietnam (large retail experiential installs) and partly because business is slow for my main client. Finding new clients to fill the gaps has required some serious email/linkedin networking hustle, but it can be done.

I've had people interested in hiring me for local projects, but I've had a hard time lowering my rates to a level acceptable for both parties. Even though they are regaled by the amount of experience, developing countries might not be so focused on quality over quantity. Which is OK.

If you take the time to get TEFL certification, that's a possible fall back. I'm a college drop out, so that's no bueno.

Anyways, wouldn't trade the experience for anything. YMMV.

intellegacy2• 12 years ago

thinking of going to vietnam for boostrapping burposes, just wondering how you chose it and what city? what kind of rent are u paying per month?

jawngee3• 12 years ago

I came here about 3 years ago to train some iPhone devs for a friend's company. Ended up making a lot of friends out here in the process. Even though it's mostly an illusion, there is a certain sense of freedom here. It's also the safest of the SE Asian countries, imho.

I live in a more upscale part of Saigon, so my rent isn't typical. But compared to what I was paying in NYC, it's not a lot. I pay $700 for a 2 bedroom in a high rise, about $100 for electricity. I have fiber internet, 40mbps, which is about $75 a month. 3G on my phone is about $5-10 a month. The sum of all of that is almost a quarter of what I was paying in NYC every month.

santoriv2• 12 years ago

I'm living in Vietnam as well. Dalat is up in the mountains, has cool weather all year round, and is much cheaper than Saigon. A room for rent is about $100 per month, a Banh Mi roll is about 10 cents. The main disadvantage of living up there is that there is no programmer community. But, if you just need to sit in a room and code and save money, it's perfect! Also, the people are super friendly. :-) Best experience of my life.

graeme4• 12 years ago

The hardest part is keeping work coming in at a constant enough rate. In NYC I was always booked solid, 24/7, but in Vietnam it comes and goes in spurts. Partly because some of the work I did in NYC has hardware requirements that can't be met here in Vietnam (large retail experiential installs) and partly because business is slow for my main client.

The only way I got around this was by building my own platform that brought in clients. I teach the LSAT, and chose to live in Montreal. It's French, not a major city for English speaking law school admissions.

NYC is the major market. I would have been booked solid if I lived there. But I likely also would have hit a local maximum, doing lots of $200 an hour tutoring and teaching $1200 classroom courses.

Instead, I had to develop products to reach students in the USA. Eventually ended up taking a page from Michael Hartl's business model and released a version of my books here:

http://lsathacks.com/explanations/

Now a lot of people find my site and I get tutoring requests organically. I'm about to do nine hours today (I just consult Saturdays).

Not everyone should do this of course – it's a lot of work to create your own product or marketing platform. Local work of mouth and advertising is SO much easier.

But for anyone considering a transition abroad, think about reaching prospects who google solutions.

intellegacy2• 12 years ago

Hey, just wondernig how your model works. I'm an SAT tutor and want to implement something similar. So you give away the explanations for free online, and charge for PDF? And get tutoring opportunities from the free book marketing. Do you teach online?

AlexNeoNomad4• 12 years ago

it's a given, if you read a post like this, it'll be about Thailand in some way.

stephenr16• 12 years ago

also a pretty good chance the words “work permit” won’t appear in the article anywhere.

just because you don’t agree with certain laws, doesnt mean you can just ignore them.

jpatokal• 12 years ago

Yup. As it happens, Thailand's currently doing one of its periodic crackdown on tourist visa abuse:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/australians-in-thailand-face-vis...

And it's actually quite difficult to do remote work or establish permanent residence legally in Thailand:

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickmanWeeklyColumn2013/Thai...

gregjor12• 12 years ago

I didn't use the term "work permit" but I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..."

The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that.

As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-offici...

You still need a visa, of course.

AlexNeoNomad4• 12 years ago

And they don't have to.

The work he does doesn't relate to Thailand at all. Do you think if someone is going to stay in Thailand for 2 weeks and work online, they'll going to get a work visa? For what? Where's a company? People? Office? For 2 weeks? And they'll have to do the same thing for any country they go? That's bunk!

He doesn't break a law working online! unless he receives money to a Thai bank.

dcarmo• 12 years ago

Why Thailand? Low cost of living?

corv4• 12 years ago

If you look at my previous post you'll see some more details but basically it boils down to friendlier, happier people, lower cost of living/higher standard of living, better weather, better and cheaper health services compared to the rest of SE Asia especially and some western countries in particular.

Also, and this is a big point I have to add, it's easy enough to get around with basic english here unlike China for example.

bshimmin3• 12 years ago

This is a wonderful case of "one man's meat is another man's poison" - he mentions in the closing paragraph how being a "digital nomad" has "improv[ed his] quality of life", and yet throughout his extremely pragmatic and practical guide to that lifestyle, all I can really see are all sorts of compromises.

The thought of sitting in a beach hut somewhere warm and sunny, typing away on a MacBook, does certainly sound very appealing. The rest of it - washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" - would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if you're in any way used to and appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.

I write this from my "three monitors and a special chair" (quite literally) and I will, in fact, be writing some "brand-new Python code" later...

(I'm also fascinated by this guy's predilection for doing maintenance work and fixing broken projects - I can hardly imagine anything worse!)

coldtea6• 12 years ago

all I can really see are all sorts of compromises.

Well, staying in the same house/appartment, seeing the same people over and over, commuting in traffic, going to the same office to have meetings the the same PHB, etc etc also involves "all sorts of compromises". Even if you freelance and you don't have the office thing, there's still the rot in your everyday life.

* The rest of it - washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" - would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if you're in any way used to and appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.*

You'd be surprised. I've lived in both kinds of situations (and on/off) and some people just feel great with that too. After all it's just a "first world problem" of the bigger calibre ("oh, I miss my big fridge and and my huge monitor").

But even those "incoveniences" can be overcome if you don't like it. With something like $800/month you can have a huge house in some parts of SE Asia, with a pool, and with your personal assistant to cook, clean the house, wash clothes etc. Better than what most of us have "back at home" actually.

graeme4• 12 years ago

With something like $800/month you can have a huge house in some parts of SE Asia, with a pool, and with your personal assistant to cook, clean the house, wash clothes etc. Better than what most of us have "back at home" actually.

Which parts are that? I'm planning to travel this winter and looking for places to settle for a month or two.

bshimmin3• 12 years ago

I totally get that different people want very different things, and I do understand that commuting and meetings are part of the rut of compromise that most people feel they have to tolerate, but some people feel a burning desire to escape. I'm probably biased against this sort of lifestyle right now because I have a young family which would make being a "digital nomad" impossible; and perhaps there's a twinge of jealousy in there because I do enjoy travelling and periodically get a little sick of rainy England. (On the bright side, I don't have much of a commute right now...)

I'm not sure having a huge house with a pool and a maid could really be considered a nomadic lifestyle. :-)

gurkendoktor• 12 years ago

After all it's just a "first world problem" of the bigger calibre ("oh, I miss my big fridge and and my huge monitor").

I turn into a "digital nomad" every now and then, but I wouldn't consider monitor size a first-world problem. There's just no way to work on a 13" MacBook without ruining your back :( Luckily I have a 24" screen that fits nicely into my suitcase.

gregjor12• 12 years ago

I tried to mix in some practical advice for living in hotels with my opinions and experiences.

Actually I have an apartment in Bangkok with maid service. I don't do my own laundry unless I'm staying at a hotel for just a day or two.

pyre• 12 years ago

washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" - would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two

The probably isn't necessary. Depending on the locale/hotel, there are probably local laundromats or hotel equivalents.

You might even be able to convince hotel staff to run it through with the hotel sheets if you really wanted to.

(I'm also fascinated by this guy's predilection for doing maintenance work and fixing broken projects - I can hardly imagine anything worse!)

On the other hand, I don't take too much of an issue with maintenance work and fixing broken projects. The issues that I usually have with these things are when restrictions are placed on me and I end up having to implement half-measures rather than taking the time to do a better job.

SyneRyder• 12 years ago

Agreed: when I was on the road internationally for 3 months, I always used the hotel laundry service if they offered one. Though if I'd known there were places like Freddy Leck (laundromat in Berlin with free wifi & serves coffee & cakes) I would've used that instead. Don't be a smelly traveller.

If you're prepared to take checked luggage, you can take a lot more clothes with you (or have room to buy more on your travels). Jeans were fine for me in Europe & even Vegas in July, though I'm used to 100F heat in summer.

BenSS• 12 years ago

Fixing broken projects is a super valuable skill to have and can be rewarding in its own way. I've reached the point where I hardly ever say "whoever wrote this was an idiot" and see why it ended up that way in the first place. More than code debugging it's also social and process debugging. You can probably tell by this point I also don't mind this kind of work (anymore).

gyardley2• 12 years ago

I can't agree more - this sort of roaming's not for everyone, and the number of people who thrive on that sort of lifestyle is a lot smaller than the number of people who think they would thrive on that sort of lifestyle.

My own travels taught me that I don't just want a comfortable lifestyle (something you can buy in some version almost anywhere) but a particular variety of comfortable lifestyle - the sort of place within walking distance of a Whole Foods and restaurants that know the right type of glass for each wine varietal.

I might be a total yuppie, but at least I'm a self-aware yuppie, and I appreciate my surroundings a whole lot more than I used to.

shubhamjain• 12 years ago

One thing successful freelancers often suggest about starting out is emailing people, selling them solutions on how their site could be fixed / made better. So far, it hasn't worked for me at all. I contacted various real estate people, from their websites and mailed them why having a sleek and responsive look matters and how I can deliver it but didn't got response from any of them.

May be it stems from the fact that I don't live in the same country as theirs or their skepticism about my claims but I am interested in knowing how exactly this thing works and where I am wrong?

datasmash• 12 years ago

It's hard to convince someone to buy something when they're not looking for a solution.

Try looking at job postings and filtering down by jobs that have been open for an extended period of time (while means they might be hard to fill). Figure out who the hiring manger is for the position and reach out to them (you won't have much luck if you go through HR).

coldtea6• 12 years ago

So far, it hasn't worked for me at all. I contacted various real estate people, from their websites and mailed them why having a sleek and responsive look matters and how I can deliver it but didn't got response from any of them.

Could be the pitch. Reak estate agents don't care for buzzwords like "responsive" (like they didn't care for "HTML5" or "semantic"), and they might think they are already sleek enough (especially if they get the number of customers they want through those sites).

As a (infrequent) user of real estate sites I also could not care less for responsive (I won't search for a house from my phone, and most any site designed for the desktop looks good as is in my iPad too) or sleek (just show me the facts I need and some good pictures of the real estate).

They could be persuaded if they have business benefits from the change. And perhaps real estate guys already do well. Perhaps check some business with a bad website that doesn't do as well -- where a better site could make a different.

MadMoogle• 12 years ago

I have no idea why this comment was downvoted. This is solid advice.

gregjor12• 12 years ago

I've taken screenshots of PHP/MySQL/ASP error pages and sent them to the owner of the site, telling them I can fix the problem. I've had a low but not terrible response to that approach, and I got a couple of my long-term clients that way.

graeme4• 12 years ago

I tried this when first starting out. I realized I was selling solutions to problems business owners didn't realize they had.

To sell to real estate agents, you need to figure out what problems real estate agents think they have. They consider how those problems, or perceived problems, can be solved with your skills.

(I don't mean "perceived problems" as a pejorative. It's often difficult to know in advance what will actually be of business value)

enjo3• 12 years ago

Out of curiosity: why does it matter?

qwerta• 12 years ago

Nice list. I would only add three advices to stay productive:

- stay at each place for minimum of three weeks. It takes some time to find stores, internet connectivity, meet people etc...

- make list of stuff you are not going to do, it simplifies your choices.

- consider to travel with luggage. I carry old 22" display in my :-)

jwblackwell• 12 years ago

The point about the type of work you're willing to accept is critical. In my experience freelancing, the clients that pay the best and offer the best projects will want to meet you occasionally at least. They'll also want commitment of a number of regular hours.

So seeing as that's out the window you'll probably end up having to fill the in between good project time with jobs from Elance etc . Be prepared to deal with some horrible code :)

gk1• 12 years ago

As a counter-example, I've only ever met half of my clients in person. The work is definitely interesting and rewarding, leagues beyond anything I would ever find on Elance.

I think the important thing is to make a human connection... So that you and the client both feel like you're working with another human, and not just some online persona. Meeting in person certainly helps, but so do Skype calls and some personal banter (but keep it professional).

Although I work state-side and only went overseas once while "on the clock," I could grab my 25L backpack, leave tomorrow, and spend the week working from Colombia without any problems.

gregjor12• 12 years ago

My main clients all pay a monthly retainer for a block of my time. I don't do piecework through eLance or oDesk. My hourly rate puts my annual gross in the same range as my friends in Silicon Valley.

If you want to do projects from scratch or work for startups that's a different situation, and you probably would need to participate with a team. For the kind of work I do it's not important where I am or what I'm wearing.

song2• 12 years ago

I'm not a digital nomad per se but I think I found a good compromise. Instead of traveling often like he does and dealing with having to travel light and not having all of the conforts, I move to a different country every year or so while still keeping all my customers in the US.

I find that it's the best of both world, I have time to discover any country I move to and really get to know the culture. It's also much easier on my clients because it's easy for them to know how to reach me and I'm sure I always have a good internet connection.

One thing I do recommend though is getting an expat health insurance like GMC, BUPA, A+, AETNA, ... It's a bit of an expense (I'm in my 30s and pay $220/month with a deductible of $1200/year for coverage anywhere in the world except Canada and US) but I think it's important for the peace of mind that it procures.

vecinu3• 12 years ago

I think you deserve your own blog post as well.

I'm currently working remotely through some extremely lucky means (Company I worked with full-time let me work remotely for a year) and I would love to continue doing this full-time.

My biggest hurdle is finding a company that is interested in hiring a junior-intermediate remote worker. I just recently officially graduated and only have 2 years of 'real' experience and it seems most companies that offer remote work are looking for workers with 5+ years of experience.

When did you start this lifestyle? Do you find the benefits outweigh the positives? How do you balance having a family/wife/children?

song2• 12 years ago

I had 4 years of experience when I started freelancing. I quit my job with enough reserve to last one year and an half and moved to Southeast Asia.

I still continued to do a bit of work for my previous company but it was actually very difficult finding new clients and if I were to do it again I'd recommend not doing what I did.

It took me about a year before I found new clients with enough work to support me. Part of the reason for that is that it took me a while before I could actually force myself to work productively at home without anyone breathing down my neck. I found my clients with a combination of blog post and contributions to open source projects.

I don't have a family and children, I have a girlfriend who does remote work as a graphic designer so it works out well for us.

I really like the life I have now but it's true that it's not for everyone, working at home is not easy for a lot of people (I do recommend checking out local co-working spaces for this). You also have to enjoy spending time learning new languages and trying to adapt to a culture that's different from your own. Moving to a new place and getting everything ready can be stressful (I tend to be easy going by nature so that doesn't bother me)

If I had children, I'm not sure what I would do.

gregjor12• 12 years ago

I have all the comforts, I just didn't bring them with me from the US. I can live in a nice furnished condo or apartment with maid service and all the amenities for 1/2 to 1/4 what I'd pay in the US.

homakov7• 12 years ago

FYI if you are perpetual traveler and stay less than 3/6 months in every country, you won't be tax resident anywhere which means no taxes at all. Doesn't work for US citizens. (I'm Russian who travels for last 3 years and I don't owe taxes to any country)

zodiac2• 12 years ago

But if you work for a US company, won't you have to pay taxes on the income earned from the US company?

homakov7• 12 years ago

The US company may be required to pay extra tax, but i just add it on top of my consulting rate coz i don't care about other people's taxes. On my side i don't owe the US anything

vecinu3• 12 years ago

This probably doesn't work in most countries...Canada also requires you to be a resident of SOME country.

homakov7• 12 years ago

It works in all countries afaik. "you stay in Canada for less than 183 days in the tax year." makes you non-resident.

mediascreen2• 12 years ago

Doesn't work for Swedish citizens either.

To avoid Swedish tax, you have to either pay taxes in the country you are living in or prove that you no longer have any lasting connection to Sweden (no partner or children there, no house or apartment and no ownership in any companies).

homakov7• 12 years ago

or prove that you no longer have any lasting connection to Sweden (no partner or children there, no house or apartment and no ownership in any companies).

Which is not hard at all: Don't have kids there, house or ownership. And you're free from taxes

Luc• 12 years ago

Most European countries won't allow you to change your place of residence without sufficient documentation of your residence in a different country, e.g. work permits, proof of residence in new country, etc. Otherwise it would be all to easy to skip on paying taxes in your home country.

Perhaps in Russia it's a bit... easier?

homakov7• 12 years ago

It is easy, just not all people know about it. Rule is simple - not be tax resident and spend < 6 months in your home country. Other proofs aren't enforced afaik. It's how it works in Russia.

FLUX-YOU• 12 years ago

There are agencies and recruiters who specialize in matching freelancers with projects, seek them out and establish a relationship.

Can anyone here make some recommendations from experience?

I feel like I'd need to be a 'rockstarninjahacker' before taking remote jobs and being able to complete them (and demand enough to pay for this lifestyle)

ohashi• 12 years ago

Can't help you with the first one.

But feeling like you need to be a rockstarninjahacker is garbage. Many of my clients have no idea how to evaluate my code. The question is - can you get it done? On time? At price? to get to that point - it's do we trust you? Working on your communication skills will probably get you much further than improving your technical skills for finding/keeping freelance work.

umami3• 12 years ago

I run one of such agencies. We are 100% remote. If you are interested contact me at hello@umamicollective.com.

nchuhoai• 12 years ago

i graduated in May and made becoming a digital nomad a goal of mine.

I'm surprised by the number of people that try to get clients, as far as reaching out to "random" real estate agencies for work.

Out of curiosity, what makes that the preferred way over trying to get a single employer that allows you to work remotely part-time?

I agree that it might be slightly more difficult initially, but IMO it's worth it as you don't have to deal with having to get new clients, manage with your current ones. I actually got really lucky that I find my company as it put enough faith in me as a recent college grad.

IMO, the only reason for me to take on new clients is for a significantly higher rate?

enjo3• 12 years ago

High there! I'm a CTO at ever-growing fully remote company (every single employee is remote). While I have no doubt you can find a company willing to hire you as a digital nomad, I definitely have a bunch of reservations about it.

We've had folks on the move quite a bit in the past (including traveling around in an RV). The biggest issue is that they tend not to be quite as plugged in as everyone else. Internet connections always seem to be spotty and there always seems to be other issues tugging at their attention (finding places to work, exploring, etc..).

That doesn't mean they produced bad work (often it was very good), but it came at the expense of the rest of the team. When we needed them to answer a question or hop into a quick discussion they often weren't around. It's just a bad dynamic as far as the rest of the team goes.

We do hire contractors for very specific and targeted projects. In that mode nomads are just fine! They don't need to fit into the broader team in a meaningful way and there is no expectation that they will. They come in for a few weeks or months and then move on. It works well and both sides are really happy with the arrangement.

Point being, you might have better luck both finding a job and being successful at it if you're looking less for full-time roles and more for contract positions that complement the type of lifestyle you want to pursue.

padobson• 12 years ago

I took a contract with a company that had a profitable and almost-working web-based business. They had fired their original developers over a contract dispute.

He's right about the high demand for maintenance contracts. The majority of my client base comes from this exact story.

In fact, you can make a lot of money just finding a bad or prima-dona developer that specializes in the same technologies as you, and cleaning up the wake of destruction they create.

gregjor12• 12 years ago

Exactly. The startup tech bros are just a job creation scheme for me.

How I work as a digital nomad

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