The Copenhagen Wheel: Electric pedal-assist motor in the hub of a bicycle wheel

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/

by nkurz • 12 years ago

72 43 12 years ago

tux1968• 12 years ago

Great idea, but not sure US$800 price point will be attractive to a large market. At half that price, these would likely fly off the shelves though.

dfxm12• 12 years ago

According to the article, electric bikes are selling for upwards of $3,000 in Europe. The best selling electric bikes on Amazon appear to be going for $1,200-$1,500.

At $800 for the wheel, you save about half compared to a complete electric bike, and you can use your current or favorite frame.

I agree, if they were cheaper, they'd sell faster, but this appears to be competitively priced, compared to the rest of the market.

tromp• 12 years ago

On a recent trip to Holland, I saw the ALDI (a cheap grocery store selling goods from boxes) selling electric bikes for EUR 799 which is under $1100. There's simply a huge price-range on electric bikes, and picking just one price point does not make for a convincing argument.

doorhammer• 12 years ago

Along with the other comments, I'd say it depends on how you use your bike.

For two years, my bike was my only mode of transit. My commute to work was about five miles. I spent about $800 on my bike. I've ridden cheaper bikes, and cheaper bikes can definitely work, but nothing ever broke on my bike, I had a good guarantee on the frame, the parts were under warranty and everything worked really well. Fwiw I took a different bike and circled Ireland on it. Similar idea. Spent about $900 total on that bike plus the touring gear (which is more sensible because it was a really specialized use)

The tires I had were something like $80 each as well.

If I were still commuting by bike everywhere, I'd really quickly consider spending $800 on something like this if I could get a guarantee on the lifetime of the unit. I love biking, but having a bike with an assist would just mean I'd have biked more, and been okay going farther out without thinking "Crap. I so don't want to bike there"

I think you're right, in that they'd sell more if they were cheaper, but if you're bike is your primary form of transit, and you have no car, $800 to make that more realistic isn't really that much, if you ask me.

ymmv of course

yellowapple• 12 years ago

Are there certain bikes that this is compatible with? The photos don't make it look like it would fit on my current bike. Is it just for road bikes, or would it work on a mountain bike as well?

Also, has anyone tested this thing out on steep hills?

DanBC• 12 years ago

https://www.superpedestrian.com/

you could ask them about hills.

What is the required dropout spacing to fit the Copenhagen Wheel?
For a single-speed, you need a 120mm dropout spacing and for a multi-speed a 135mm dropout is required. If you are unsure about your dropout spacing, please contact us and we will help you determine if the Wheel will work with your bike.
Can the Copenhagen Wheel be used with a multi-speed bike?
Yes, the Copenhagen Wheel is fully compatible with multi-speed bikes. You will be able to use it with 7 speed, 8 speed, 9 speed, and 10 speed cassettes. If your current wheel is a free-wheel (not cassette), then you may require minor derailleur adjustment.

colbyh• 12 years ago

A wheel like this on a road bike is going to cause hell with my Strava rankings :-(

cottonseed2• 12 years ago

Electric bicycles with pedal assist were ubiquitous in Shanghai 10 years ago. The most common design I saw had a removable/rechargeable battery that was mounted on the down tube.

tokai• 12 years ago

Like the one in the second picture of the article?

cottonseed2• 12 years ago

Exactly. That was 10 years ago. I never understood why China wasn't exporting them, unless there's no market.

chillingeffect• 12 years ago

Yes, the market has been climbing healthily for eBikes over the last decade.

I see no reason why this one in particular should catch on better than the others, though. Consumers are buying bikes, not individual wheels.

Also, the competition is very stiff out there. It has had time to mature. This is a new, and unproven and expensive entry.

And as we should all know, superior tech is not a guaranteed win:

"The Superpedestrian wheel is so far in the lead in terms of the engineering and coming to market that they are probably going to define the market entirely,"
A big way to open the market will be to make them more affordable

Well this wheel is not more affordable, it has more tech features.

hudibras• 12 years ago

Same thing in Japan, they're everywhere. Prices start around $1000.

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?word=panason...

cypher543• 12 years ago

Just in case anyone else is wondering, this is indeed the same wheel that Andy promoted throughout season 7 of Showtime's "Weeds". I had no idea it was a real thing, so I assumed this was a joke at first.

616c• 12 years ago

I am really glad I was not the only guy with that reaction. I chuckled out loud and clicked immediately.

It is more puzzling he could not pull off the idea. Now that I know it is real, I definitely want one fo these.

berryg2• 12 years ago

I recently bought this German bike: http://en.r-m.de/bike/mixte-nuvinci-hs-hybrid/. It does 45 km/h for about 50km. You always have to pedal. A cruising speed of 35 km/h is very realistic. Without breaking a sweat. You can also select for less pedal assistance and the battery almost lasts 100 km. I consider it very real alternative for using a car to commute if you have to travel up to 35 km to work.

mistermann• 12 years ago

I see the power is applied at the pedals rather than the wheel, how do you like that? Any issues, any concerns about longevity?

berryg2• 12 years ago

It has advantages. The center of gravity is in the middle of the bike and at the 'bottom' of the bike. Electric motor in front wheel makes it more difficult the steer. Electric motor in the back wheel can cause 'understeer' especially in winter or on wet roads. The Bosch motor has been around for a while now and they have a very good reputation. A lot of new e-bikes have these pedal-powered Bosch motors.

I must add. E-bikes are selling like hotcakes in The Netherlands. The first people to buy them were 50+ years old. Now 30+ year old people are buying e-bikes like this one. They are a serious alternative for a small car. These bikes are not cheap. Like $ 4000,-. But, there is certainly a market for them. I like to think they are the Tesla version of an e-bike.

Theodores• 12 years ago

In a normal bicycle shop it is very hard to actually sell an actual electric bike.

There hasn't been anything fundamentally wrong with the product there just isn't meaningful demand. It is not as if people see the bike, want one but cannot afford it. It is not as if people want the electric bike but find the product falls short of expectations. Only a few brands actually have electric bikes, e.g. Giant, and the general idea is pedal assist up to 15 mph because of legal reasons.

The detachable battery pack of such 'conventional' electric bikes is practical for the typical customer as you can take the battery out and recharge it without running some power cord to the bike shed/street. This all-in-one wheel lacks that practical aspect so it will be another far-too-clever-idea that goes nowhere. Also, the iphone hookup is great in principle but, as per the Giant e-bikes, all you need is a simple switch between eco and power modes on the handlebar. Your legs can do all the other aspects of power management far more effectively than some bluetooth gizmo.

I think that the key to winning people over to electric bikes is for cities like London and Paris to upgrade their fleets of hire bikes to be electric. People would have a go, see what fun electric bikes are, experience how safe they are due to the manoeuvrability that comes with that helpful bit of extra power, go home and think about getting one for their commute or leisure needs.

ArkyBeagle• 12 years ago

Oatley electronics sells a much less elegant electric bike kit ( you supply the bike and, I presume, the battery ) for considerably less money.

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?cPath=...

devindotcom• 12 years ago

It's a cool thing, but why does it keep turning up? The Copenhagen Wheel was invented in 2009 and refreshed at the end of last year in a crowdfunding project. And just today an editor pitched me on the idea that e-bikes using this or other methods were about to blow up. E-bike makers have been telling me that for years...

dsr_• 12 years ago

My commute is 12 miles by road (8 straight-line); it takes about an hour on public transportation, or about 45 minutes by car.

Every so often I think about a Segway or an electric bicycle or Acme rocket-skates or what-have-you. But nothing is ever cheap enough to let me try it out and not be extremely unhappy at wasting money if it doesn't work out. If they came with a 30 day no-questions return, or could be rented for a month, I might find something I like enough to buy.

bobowzki• 12 years ago

I had a commute like that too. Cycled in sports clothes and showered at work. It was great.

oh_sigh• 12 years ago

Why not just get a bike and ride that?

jessaustin2• 12 years ago

Yeah bicycles actually can be "rented for a month" (or a week or a day or an hour). There's no way you won't beat the 4 MPH your car is getting. (Incidentally I hope never to purchase a used car the engine of which has been subjected to that treatment every weekday for years.)

awjr• 12 years ago

I think the issue with electric bikes is that until you try one out you have no idea what you are missing out on. Recently I was able to test a direct drive (The motor is in the bottom bracket and assists you pedalling). It's phenomenal.

I could easily go up very steep hills without a lot of effort and I weigh 270lb. I could even vary the help it was giving me and choose to have more of a workout.

What I would suggest is that if you are on the heavy side or intend to carry heavy loads, direct drive is the best for you.

One negative side to the e-bike legislation is that in the UK, it's speed limited to assist up to 15MPH and on 250W motors. To a certain extent I have no issue with the assist cutting out at 15MPH (20 would be nicer), however the 250W limit reduces torque and if you had a load of shopping with you, this could be an issue.

The issue I find with the Copenhagen wheel is that it is trying to think for you and you control the wheel through your phone. When riding, I prefer not to remove my hands from the handle bar. Most if not all ebike configurations place the motor control near a thumb as if you were holding on to the handle bar. My criticism may be unfounded, but you need control sometimes at a moments notice.

The other issue is one of battery charging. Most people that I know that have an ebike, have bought two chargers, one for work and one for home, and charge their batteries at both ends by removing the battery from the bike and leaving the bike locked up in the parking lot. The copenhagen wheel doesn't seem to support that idea.

schrodinger3• 12 years ago

I don't think you need the phone to control it while you're riding; rather it senses the amount of assist desired but how much you're pedaling. The phone is just used to give it a general idea of how aggressively you'd like it to assist overall.

participle2• 12 years ago

The kind of ebike you're recommending is called a mid drive, not a direct drive. Mid drives connect to the bike chain so it combines your bike's gears with the motor, that's where all that great hill climbing ability comes from.

Direct drive is just a regular hub type that sits in the center of the wheel. They're not so good since they do not use the bike's gears, you end up with cogging when pedaling, it distributes the bike's weight unevenly and low power restrictions make it fairly useless for hills. There's also geared hubs these days which look similar but work a little better.

Course, any of these types are better than the copenhagen wheel.

Personally my dream ebike would be a Bosch mid drive connected to a nuvinci internal shifting hub via a gates carbon drive, all mounted on a full suspension carbon fiber frame with the battery mounted in the center triangle.

dzhiurgis2• 12 years ago

This.

I hope by carbon drive you mean a belt instead of chain.

And don't forget brakes in hub, a la Gazelle style. Utility frame, obviously.

Forget the carbon as for this to be remotely successfully, the prices must be as low as possible. Currently the majority of the price is the battery. Add carbon frame and it will cost as much as a reasonably new car.

As for the controls - I believe there shouldn't be any so it feels as natural as possible. Forget the smartphone control bullshit. You could pair it once via BLE so you'd get some statistics at most. Tech shouldn't be intrusive!

barkingcat• 12 years ago

How are these?

http://www.stealthelectricbikescanada.com/bomber-electric-bi...

Shorel• 12 years ago

I ride a moped, and the motor has an accelerator just like a motorcycle.

I don't see any reason to change that basic design.

May be add a cruise control button to fix the accelerator at some speed, but that's it.

holri• 12 years ago

I am regular bicycle driver. We won a weekend trip with e-bikes on a contest. Although the electric motor increases the average speed, range and hill climbing I did not like the handling and additional weight and complexity of the electric bicycle. This was the first bicycle I had to pedal downhill (electric motor off). So the mechanical efficiency seems to be bad. Since my fitness allows enough speed and good range on a traditional bike (also with a trailer) I do not need the electric assistance. It adds unnecessary complexity, weight, costs and maintenance for me.

hyperion2010• 12 years ago

I was biking to work the other day and had a guy pass me using one of these on his front wheel. It was completely silent and he practically doubled my speed on a road bike just cruising. I'm used to being one of the faster commuters, so my brain did a pretty serious double take. Having had a nasty crash at normal speed I will say that I would seriously suggest wearing more protective clothing if you are going to roll with one of these.

twobits• 12 years ago

To put it simply: I bought an electric bike 4 months ago. ..My wife is divorcing me. :-)

Executor• 12 years ago

Shut up and take my money!

The Copenhagen Wheel: Electric pedal-assist motor in the hub of a bicycle wheel

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