Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

by lobo_tuerto • 12 years ago

163 127 12 years ago

sirsar• 12 years ago

For those put off by the first few chapters, I highly recommend you try to stick with it, or skip the first 10 chapters. This story starts out with a rather insufferable tone, but after that, it becomes a lot of fun. It's what the author calls "rational fiction", meaning that there are mysteries in it that you can solve, given enough thought (unlike most of the mystery genre).

not_a_test_user• 12 years ago

I disagree. It starts with a rather insufferable tone and then, somehow, it manages to get worse.

RodericDay• 12 years ago

Agreed. It's great insight into what LessWrong types consider "brilliance", though, so I don't regret reading it.

asuffield• 12 years ago

If you do not value rationality and believe in the primary of the truth, you will hate it. This is not an apolitical story, it is in many ways a manifesto.

crpatino5• 12 years ago

On insufferability:

My take is that during the first 12-15 chapters or so, LessWrong was using the context of the Potter-verse as a pretext to write about his vision on what constitutes "rationality", which may be called "Bayesianism", but I am not really sure. And YES, this part is insufferable. I found that dialogs between Harry and McGonagall were specially awful since those pushed me out of suspension of disbelief almost on a sentence by sentence basis.

The history however gets better, at least in the sense that the author stops preaching through the main characters and begins to actually write a story. There are multiple ways this story may offend a portion of its readers, so it is not for every one, but strictly speaking the flow gets better after the first few chapters.

Without giving spoilers away, some of the things that tend to annoy people the most are:

* Whether the main character (Harry) is a mary sue or not.

* The promotion or demotion of certain support characters in comparison with the canon.

* The value system of the author, which keeps leaking through the whole story and may touch one sensible fiber or another from time to time.

Personally, these issues do not bother me a lot. However I am aware of the shortcomings and would set the story a PG-18+ rating. While it is one of my guilty pleasures, I would not stand any of my children dwell in this kind of "rationality porn" before they have had some exposure to the real world and have pondered over some of the ethical issues that are fiercely debated in our society.

amalcon• 12 years ago

Agreed. It started out rather insufferable, but had a good enough concept (somebody trying to figure out how magic actually works) an a good enough execution on that concept, that it was a very enjoyable read anyway. Recently, he's largely abandoned the "figure out how magic actually works" part in favor of the not terribly interesting plot and characters.

JoshTriplett3• 12 years ago

Personally, I was introduced to the story via a link to the chapter involving experiments with a time turner to factor products of large primes, or solve any other NP-style problem whose solution is easy to check but hard to find: http://hpmor.com/chapter/17

You can safely read up through the result of that experiment without any major spoilers for reading the story from the beginning. If that humor amuses you, you'll likely enjoy the rest of the story.

Also, if you find characters in the first chapters insufferable, it might be worth revisiting them after getting more used to the characters via the later chapters. The "insufferability" is actually addressed in-story and in-character, with some specific reasons given for why people might react that way.

irremediable• 12 years ago

On your recommendation, I might try it again, perhaps skipping the first 10 chapters.

zephjc2• 12 years ago

I actually found the earlier chapters interesting, but the whole Battle Magic arc rather tedious

MPSimmons• 12 years ago

Is it done yet? I refuse to read it again until it is. It has, so far, sucked in a week of my time twice, because I had to re-read all of it to remember how the new chapters came about.

It's really great writing (as sirsar says, after a while) - at least, I enjoyed it. But it does keep going well after you think it would.

nbouscal2• 12 years ago

Not yet. He's working on the last set of updates, and is hoping to be done by the end of the year.

JoshTriplett3• 12 years ago

There's also a well-done podcast version at http://www.hpmorpodcast.com/ . (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8053802)

StavrosK• 12 years ago

I love this, it is one of the best things I've read, and I think it made me a better person by changing the way I think.

Here's an ebook version I made:

https://leanpub.com/hpmor

It should be mostly-current (I'll update it again now).

zyxley2• 12 years ago

MoR? Bleh. It's basically a half-inch away from a self-insert story, with every Doylist weakness in the narrative brutally exploited in a Watsonian manner and every other character made into a drooling moron so that Harry can be a genius by comparison.

I much prefer stories like Applied Cultural Anthropology, which takes the informed attributes of characters and runs with them to better flesh out the background and to give every character, including the villains, more Doylist competence.

Edit: link is https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9238861/1/Applied-Cultural-Anth... (thanks, Groxx)

Groxx• 12 years ago

I'll have to check that one out, thanks!

Link for others (and for verification, but I think it's right): https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9238861/1/Applied-Cultural-Anth...

Albuca• 12 years ago

Do you have a link you could share?

zephjc2• 12 years ago

I don't think that's a fair analysis of the characters as the story progresses (except maybe for Ron, but who likes Ron anyway?) How far into HPMOR did you get?

nikbackm• 12 years ago

I haven't read much of this, but I recall a scene where Dumbledore was portrayed in a very unflattering light at least.

(Something about trying to avoid dying I think)

danielweber2• 12 years ago

I have my issues with the rest of the series, but I really liked the part where Ron says "if you are a friend of Malfoy, you can't be my friend" and Harry tells him to go pound sand. It's just a horrible thing for the supposed heroes of the original book to roll along with.

gcv2• 12 years ago

every other character made into a drooling moron

Professor Quirrel?

crpatino5• 12 years ago

Well... he seems to be the only one who actually drools so far (not counting the troll or any non human being).

Indyan• 12 years ago

I'm a fan of this fanfic. I gave up due to the glacial pace of updates. But, this fanfic has been discussed on HN several times.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1898783

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2429034

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1385932

mcguire2• 12 years ago

"'I don't see why it wouldn't be,' Harry said. 'A buckytube is just a graphite sheet wrapped into a circular tube, basically, and graphite is the same stuff used in pencils -'"

Well, technically....

sp332• 12 years ago

They're naturally occurring in soot http://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1782 and I suppose pencil lead as well.

mcguire2• 12 years ago

Graphite is used in pencils by being mixed with clay and compressed, then heated in a kiln. It's essentially a ceramic. Diamonds, pure graphite, buckminsterfullerenes, etc., are pure carbon.

anatoly4• 12 years ago

Worm by Wildbow is also very much worth a try: http://parahumans.wordpress.com/

Not a fan fiction, like HPMoR, but rather a lengthy novel about superheroes and supervillains that takes the subject seriously and with an incredible amount of inventiveness. It may sound lame, but just try it for a chapter or two.

DanAndersen2• 12 years ago

Seconding this one. I still haven't finished yet (on chapter 21/30 so far) but I've been quite impressed with it. I will say that it's important to get past the first couple sections, as the "high school" setting initially didn't grab me, but once it got into the world of capes it captured my attention. It's just nice to have characters that actually think things through and don't fall for the typical tropes of the genre.

anatoly4• 12 years ago

I was undecided about it right up until the big fight with the big L in one of the early chapters. That was so emotionally captivating, so epic and detail-rich at the same time, I was just walking around in disbelief afterwards going "What the hell did I just read?! How... but how...?!"

nbouscal2• 12 years ago

Worm was so damn good, but I feel obligated to put a warning here. It's not just a lengthy novel, it's an extremely lengthy novel. Starting reading Worm can cause significantly decreased productivity for roughly the next month.

anatoly4• 12 years ago

I honestly don't understand how it's not published yet. Yeah, it's extremely lengthy, and may need to get slimmed down in editing, but it's just so good, better by far than most current published SF out there.

ramidarigaz• 12 years ago

Honestly Worm is probably one of the best superhero stories I've ever read. Wildbow made a really cool world with some crazy superpowers, and then managed to put an amazing story in it. Fair warning, it's ~1.75 million words. It took me a solid month to read.

Another good scifi web fic is Ra: http://qntm.org/ra. It's about a world in which 'magic' was discovered in 1972 by an Indian physicist. The story largely revolves around the search for what 'magic' really is.

cousin_it• 12 years ago

Fine Structure, the story Sam Hughes wrote before Ra, is also really good: http://qntm.org/structure

bduerst2• 12 years ago

Is there an epub version of Worm?

If not, would the author object to someone scraping their site to make an epub version?

Eliezer• 12 years ago

I second the recommendations of both _Worm_ and _Ra_.

Rantenki• 12 years ago

Wildbow's new series, which is a story about Occult, Diabolism,and explores a world where mathematical precision is applied against magic and deals with the devil, is also quite good :)

http://pactwebserial.wordpress.com/

zyxley2• 12 years ago

Worm is pretty good, but it runs into the issue that the continuing escalation of the narrative's scope, and a considerable time-skip partway through the story, can (depending on the reader) lose the aspects that drew a reader's interest in the first place.

Now that it's finished, it seems like it would work better if edited into a print or ebook format. The narrative could be split into two or three books with each designed to have self-contained storylines, making the differences in focus and scale less jarring.

It also has the same basic problem that most superhero fiction does, where a lot of the setting as presented is constructed to allow contrived superhero punch-ups and doesn't make that all that much sense in the context of how the characters and their powers would actually affect the world.

This problem is kind of a given if you want people running around in colorful costumes and capes, though, unless it's a setting where superhumans have only just appeared, like in the excellent novel Turbulence (http://www.amazon.com/Turbulence-Samit-Basu-ebook/dp/B00B0LP...).

saraid2165• 12 years ago

Wildbow has mentioned the timeskip specifically as something he wishes he hadn't done.

basseq3• 12 years ago

I'm re-reading Worm currently, and keep thinking about what an awesome HBO/Netflix series it would make. I've been waiting patiently for the end of HPMoR. Have also read Ra, but Ra (and Fine Structure) both start going off the rails at some point, and I find it hard to follow.

All need a solid editor, but they're awesome and I can't believe the big publishing houses don't have people looking for stuff like this.

DanAndersen2• 12 years ago

I've been thinking the same thing. Worm would be great on HBO or Netflix, an extended drama that could give proper time to let the world and characters be expanded.

At the same time I wonder how they could convey all the details of rational thinking, internal dialogue and the like. I think it has the same issue the film of Ender's Game had in that it's just hard to include those details from an external perspective.

freshchilled• 12 years ago

I'm on my second read through of Worm, and it still sucks my time away almost as badly as the first! I had numerous nights where I'd read until 3 or 4 am when I had to drag myself into work the next day (and read it on the commute).

davidgerard2• 12 years ago

I've been reading all the Worm fanfic I can find on SpaceBattles. My goodness there's a lot of it. Some even finished!

jsnell• 12 years ago

I really like Worm (read through it once, then reread about 90% of it when preparing to write a review). My experience from recommending it a few times is that if people get a few chapters in, it's probably going to be a lot of very late nights of reading. The world building is some of the best I've ever seen, and Wildbow is really good at setting up cliffhangers that just make you read one more chapter. Probably a requirement for the web serial format.

I also find the business model to be very interesting as a sign of the times, some more thoughts on that in the aforementioned review: http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2014-05-24-book-review-wor...

JoshTriplett3• 12 years ago

If you're looking to start reading Worm, and you want to do so in manageable chunks, you might try https://www.comic-rocket.com/explore/worm/ . That'll let you read it page-by-page (of its 306 pages) and note wherever you stop so you can return later.

imranq• 12 years ago

Reminds me of Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby...another story-driven "technical" book.

I imagine if all my technical books were written like that, I'd quickly have to check in to a mental institution.

Houshalter2• 12 years ago

People seem to either love this book or vocally hate it with passion. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground, or at least those people never speak up.

maxerickson• 12 years ago

I don't find it appealing and haven't read much of it (I was aware of it prior to this post).

Does that count?

erichocean• 12 years ago

I suspect it's because the world itself breaks along those lines.

It's a bit like how Republicans and Democrats look to a non-statist a hell of a lot like how Protestants and Catholics look to an atheist: they agree on far, far more fundamental things than their actual disagreements, which are mostly at the edges, not at the core.

Similarly, whenever Randian-style "reason" is promoted as it is in Methods (to a degree), the world breaks strongly on people who really, REALLY like that sort of thing, and people who truly, absolutely hate it with a passion.

(Funny anecdote: a friend of ours in college—a mild, sweet, good-tempered female—tried to read Any Rand's "Anthem" in the school library one day and physically threw the book against the wall she was so upset by it!)

saraid2165• 12 years ago

Actually, I like the Harry Potter takedowns he does, but I find the zomgrationality bits boring and just skip the preaching.

As fanfiction, it is surprisingly good prose. But you know, it's still fanfiction, namely Harry Potter fanfiction, and thus has trouble actually rising above that. I like Darths and Droids for the same reason.

aaronem2• 12 years ago

Ye gods. It's everything I could've possibly imagined from a Harry Potter fanfic written by Eliezer Yudkowsky.

davidtanner• 12 years ago

And then some.

ajaimk• 12 years ago

I've been reading this on and off over the past few years. The skill level of some fan fiction writers is indeed amazing.

elevenfist• 12 years ago

I really enjoyed reading this, although after satirizing how contrived the original harry potter is, in the later chapters the story itself becomes somewhat contrived.

[spoilers, sort of]

I dropped it after the author effective "fridged" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators, or http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFri...) one of the main characters for the sole purpose of galvanizing another character's development.

Houshalter2• 12 years ago

Seriously? Characters aren't allowed to die just because they are female?

chromaton• 12 years ago

I had skipped the first few chapters (as had been suggested by others) and then started reading. I really liked the bits where Harry tried to figure out the nature of magic by using the scientific method (do wizards call upon magical power directly? or are their magic words and gestures simply controls for a sort of machine which unleashes the real power? Does magical ability follow Mendelian genetics? What kinds of materials can we make using magic?)

Later on, it got bogged down in an intra-school magic battle and Hermione and her crew attempting to be recognized as heroes, and that's where I stopped. It just seemed like the author gave up the whole "Methods of Rationality" thing and decided to write straight fanfic: stories and situations in which he'd like to see the characters. I gave up on it.

logfromblammo2• 12 years ago

The "what if" concept is an interesting one, but you can really only keep that up for a few chapters, to show how all the obvious consequences will pan out.

After that, the author has to create additional divergences to justify an original story line, particularly with respect to Quirrell. There is a bit too much emphasis on deconstructing the very powerful, yet somehow mysteriously unimportant, plot devices from the source material, particularly the time turners.

Yes, a device that allows you to travel backwards in time that is somehow available to barely competent wizarding students probably would not have been used once as a plot device and discarded forevermore. But there is such a thing as the MST3K rule: it's just a book; I should really just relax. We purposefully ignore more details like the fact that spacecraft drive systems powerful enough to not be boring must necessarily be powerful enough to completely demolish whatever interesting plot we had in mind, simply because it gets in the way of the story. If you look at Star Wars, you know in your rational mind--from the first moment a hyperdrive engages--that Death Stars are not the best way to destroy planets, but you throw popcorn at that part of your brain and scream at it to shut up and watch the movie.

HPMoR doesn't throw that popcorn. It enthusiastically joins in, and spoils the suspension of disbelief for everyone.

But there is that one little bit of the very first original HP book that justifies the premise. It didn't even make it into the film version. Prof. Snape protects the MacGuffin with a logic puzzle, rather than magic, because the vast majority of wizards are completely unfamiliar with common sense.

But you can't have a hyperrational wizard among cloudcuckoolander wizards, in the same way that you can't have an interstellar hyperdrive that doesn't destroy planets. Because then you end up with an undestroyable horcrux and a first-year wizarding student who performs tasks nearly without assistance that a full caper crew of adults might find insurmountable. Your suspension of disbelief just has to attach to the chassis at a different point.

Steuard2• 12 years ago

From where I'm sitting, this is an inappropriate level of spoilers to include in a comment here. Could you perhaps edit (or cut) your next to last sentence?

logfromblammo2• 12 years ago

To be fair, the bit about the horcrux is speculation. The author never explicitly states what that particular character was actually doing at that particular event of real-world historical importance. But anyone with two brain cells to rub together and some ability at predicting the behavior of storybook villains could figure it out.

Jach• 12 years ago

Or just prefix with a spoiler warning. However I think they are appropriate. Some people need a little more incentive to start reading or watching something besides a link to it, or an empty recommendation from a friend or community, and the "spoilers" often found in some reviewer's blurb on a back of a book/movie box serve that purpose well. And anyway, those "spoilers" from the perspective of the whole story are really just cool little blurbs about what you might expect without spoiling the actually interesting parts of how, why, and the aftermath.

A succinct blurb about what to expect plot-wise could be something like "covers many of the events of the actual series, but all in the first year and more rationally". If someone has read the canon HP books, they can probably infer Azkaban, Horcruxes, Polyjuice, portkeys, Quidditch, and so on will make an appearance in some fashion. They might not think about the time turner though, and if you're trying to get someone to read the book, and that someone knows about NP problems, mentioning the author addresses possibly solving NP problems with time travel, that's such a small spoiler but can pique the interest enough that someone may read it who otherwise wouldn't have. (Can you get talk about NP problems in fiction outside of sci-fi? Would you expect it from a Harry Potter fanfic?)

shinigami4• 12 years ago

Warning: the (real world) point of the fanfic is to recruit people into a cult whose goal is to prevent evil artificial intelligence from taking over the world.

Seriously.

kbenson5• 12 years ago

You make that sound like a bad thing?

shinigami4• 12 years ago

Paved with good intentions and so on...

TeMPOraL8• 12 years ago

to prevent evil artificial intelligence from taking over the world

Many smart people find good reasons to care about that. But even if it's a personal goal for the author, it doesn't mean it's what he wants other people to do.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/66/rationality_common_interest_of_ma...

into a cult

Oh well, you realize you're writing this on another cult's news page? ;).

http://lesswrong.com/lw/4d/youre_calling_who_a_cult_leader/

shinigami4• 12 years ago

I've never heard of Paul Graham saying or doing a single thing that smacks of cultishness

I love how he implicitly acknowledges that he does a lot of things that smacks of cultishness :)

But yes, believe it or not, I was the first person who posted "Paul Graham Ate Breakfast" as a comment in reddit, and someboy created a fake news webpage and submitted it.

nemo6• 12 years ago

My favorite event in their utterly credulous certainty in the inevitability of a friendly AI was the response to 'Roko's Basilisk.'

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk

No rational person could describe that groupthink madness as a cult. :)

TeMPOraL8• 12 years ago

Funny there's always this one little thing one can bring up to point that a non-mainstream group is definitely a cult and thus are a bunch of loons :).

I used to be involved with a religious group many outsiders consider to be a cult. There was always this event that everyone outside kept bringing up - that one little prediction 40 years ago that some people took too seriously and ended up making stupid life decisions. (I'm not close to that group anymore, but I still value those people as the most honest and consistent in their thinking folks I ever met)

Yes, people who extrapolate things from their beliefs to guide their life decisions can and do make mistakes. They will reach stupid conclusions and believe them until they figure out that those conclusions are stupid and rethink things again. I still respect them more than the usual crowd (both in religious and non-religious groups) who claim to believe (or believe that they believe) one thing and actually believe something else. I value consistency in thinking.

EDIT:

Disclaimer, before I get labelled as a cult priest for replying in the cult thread for the fourth time: I have my pet peeve with cult accusations, because I've been close with many groups accused of cultishness - both religious and secular, and I know how this is an impossible accusation to defend from. If you try to tell "hey, it's not a cult, because X" then it's definitely a cult, because that's obviously what a cult member would say.

Also, you want to see real cults? Try political parties ;).

snowwrestler2• 12 years ago

Which was recently discussed in a HN thread, which is why HPMOR is on the HN homepage again. The circle of life!

swombat4• 12 years ago

Worth mentioning:

"Silly over-extrapolations of local memes, jargon and concepts are posted to LessWrong quite a lot; almost all are just downvoted and ignored. But for this one, Eliezer Yudkowsky, the site's founder and patriarch, reacted to it hugely. The basilisk is completely banned from discussion on LessWrong, where almost any mention of it is deleted.[4]"

loup-vaillant8• 12 years ago

You make it sound like AI is not a serious risk…

I'm not going to justify myself (okay, a little bit[1]), but I must say I'm at a point where such assumptions make me raise an eyebrow.

[1] http://intelligenceexplosion.com/

shinigami4• 12 years ago

It seems it may be a risk, but we are nowhere near building it.

lurkinggrue• 12 years ago

Yeah, I'm all for the evil AI taking over.

swombat4• 12 years ago

Dear Eliezer Yudkowsky,

I beg you, please continue writing this awesome stuff.

Thanks,

Almost Everyone Who's Read This

crpatino5• 12 years ago

Also, I hate to bring this on, but is it possible to set a dead man switch to distribute your unedited notes on the final arc... just in case you get hit by a bus over the next couple of months/years?

TeMPOraL8• 12 years ago

What people complaining about "insufferable tone", "author inserts", etc. seem to miss is that HPMOR is not a completely stand-alone story. Eliezer is trying to get across some ideas about rationality, game theory and bayesian statistics he previously described at lenght in his non-fiction writings[0], and he often indirectly refers to them. Having read those posts before discovering HPMOR I very much enjoyed the first chapters and didn't find any "insufferable tone", but I can understand how some of the text can be confusing to people who haven't read Eliezer's blog posts before.

[0] http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Sequences

saraid2165• 12 years ago

I didn't read the Sequences (mostly, it must be said, because they were boring), enjoyed the first few chapters, didn't mind the insufferable tone, and just ignore the unsubtle preaching. I'm more bothered by That Major Story Event in the 90s chapters than his authorial quality, really.

loup-vaillant8• 12 years ago

What worries me most about that last arc is the possibility that we have to solve the plot before it turns into a sad ending. Eliezer has mentioned the possibility before, and even has done something similar before.

We may want to read HPMOR again before the last arc goes out, in the hope of gleaning that crucial piece of information that may save the plot.

GFK_of_xmaspast2• 12 years ago

The "Turner Diaries" author was trying to get across some ideas as well.

tzs2• 12 years ago

Another interesting take along these lines (although intended as just a story rather than as educational material) is "A Study In Magic" [1]. It's a Harry Potter/BBC's Sherlock crossover. The Dursley's were killed (in a Moriarty plot), and Holmes and Watson end up adopting Harry. He has learned a lot from Holmes and Watson, and brings this knowledge to Hogwarts. Holmes takes quite an interest in the criminal aspects of the wizarding world.

[1] https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7578572/1/A-Study-in-Magic

mrfusion• 12 years ago

Dumb question: is there a way to load that onto the kindle?

tzs2• 12 years ago

Not that I know of, other than grabbing each chapter with something like curl or wget (change the /1/ in the URL to /n/ to get chapter n), processing it to extract the text, and concatenating them, and then sending that to your Kindle over USB or by mailing it to your Amazon "send to my Kindle" address.

If you change the www in the URL to m, you get the mobile version, which has less complicated HTML, which might make extracting the text easier.

You could also try reading it online in the Kindle browser. I have not tried reading anything from fanfiction.net there, so I don't know how well that works.

scintill76• 12 years ago

IIRC, I've used FanFictionDownloader successfully: http://www.fanfictiondownloader.net/download.php

jonmrodriguez• 12 years ago

I love the story, and am currently waiting for the next installment.

One very tiny nitpick is about the title; the story is (at least currently) intended for web-based distribution, and in Chrome (Mac), Chrome (Windows), and Firefox (Mac), the title when rendered in the tab bar is truncated to "Harry Potter and the Meth", which frankly I'm embarrassed to have on my screen. A simple change such as using "&" instead of "and" would fix this.

GFK_of_xmaspast2• 12 years ago

I read a few dozen chapters of this while I was laid up sick a few years ago and after the first few it was with increasing revulsion and curiosity of just how terrible it would get.

(The answer is: pretty terrible).

ender89• 12 years ago

I tried reading this, and I found that I wasn't a fan for two very specific reasons: First, Harry is imbued with a level of knowledge you'd be hard pressed to find at the world's top universities, and that always takes me out of a story. Its not his intelligence that bothers me, but the fact that he's a veritable walking scientific encyclopedia. Secondly, by adding rationality to Harry, the author also seems to have added a healthy dose of irrational fears. There's a moment that is the polar opposite of the original stories where harry decides that "voldemort" is a terrifying name and should be replaced with with "He-who-must-not-be-named". Which is silly and a clear misunderstanding of what drives harry potter and a clear misunderstanding of what "rationality" means.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

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