Ask HN: Offered new job position, no pay rise. What to do?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039818

by grecy • 12 years ago

16 19 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hi HN,

I've been working as an Application Manager for a few years now, basically babysitting a couple of enterprise applications, doing a little development and fixing lots of things when they break.

I'm actually a Software Engineer and am way overqualified for this position, but I'm in a very remote place, so options are limited.

We've been working on a "promotion" or "more senior/technical" position for a long, long time, and the offer letter finally came across my desk.

The description is much more senior, much more responsibility and accountability for performance and systems. It's also got components of mentoring younger staff and being on call (yuk!).

The salary they're offering is identical to what I've been on for the last 2 years. No extra benefits or anything.

Their justification for this is I'm at 100% of my benchmark for my current role, so I can't get a raise. In the new role, my current salary is only around 85% of the benchmark, so I would be eligible for a raise when those discussions come around again in a year.

I feel like they're trying to get me to do this without adjusting my pay accordingly.

How can I word my reply in such a way to make it sound like I'm very interested, and really want my career to progress, but I also expect (deserve?) a pay rise.

Thanks,

pzxc2• 12 years ago

Wow... to be honest, it sounds like they think you might be a fool.

Here's how my instincts tell me to respond:

"Only a fool would accept increased responsibilities and the addition of being on call without more compensation. If you honestly can't afford to increase pay at all, I'd prefer to stay in my current position and continue to do the bang-up job I've been doing. If you can afford something, let's talk."

But my instincts usually get me into trouble, so I wouldn't actually say that without taking the time to think things through.

Thinking things through a bit more, I can only come to one likely conclusion. Honestly, they already think you are a fool... and are just trying to get more work out of you. What rational person would go from 40 hours a week to 40+?? hours a week (if you don't think being on-call is working extra hours, you've never done it) plus new jobs like training other people, and no additional pay?

I'd be scared if I were you. Either they are entirely stupid (possible), or they just flat out don't need you at all and consider you expendable/replaceable with the next coder that walks down the street, or they would never even ask something ridiculous. Or you've demonstrated them in the past that you were willing to accept ridiculous things, I dunno.

Are you sure they need you? If so, you have some room to be polite and not burn any bridges but stand firm that more responsibility will only be accepted with more compensation. If they don't need you, they are playing you and you should keep your mouth shut while looking for a new place to work. (and not accept the promo in as few words as possible)

Personally, I'd probably confront them about the absurdity of their proposal, but I tend to be direct like that, everyone knows where I stand when I work with them and I'm not afraid to say unpopular things. It's gotten me into trouble plenty of times; I don't necessarily recommend it.

Do what YOU think you should do, not what some stranger on the internet says. (Though sometimes I agree it's useful to hear a variety of opinions to see if you've missed any angles)

EDIT: Okay maybe I wouldn't confront them. At least not for a few days, I'd let myself cool for a while and think about it. Please don't read my post and go confront them and get fired, if you need the job that is. But don't voluntarily agree to make yourself miserable with more work for no additional benefit.

grecy2• 12 years ago

Thanks for the honest thoughts, I appreciate it.

Absolutely, I need to do what I think is right, I guess I'm asking for other opinions because I don't know if I'm the one being unreasonable, or if they are, and it's nice to get a few other perspectives.

I just spoke to a good friend at work here who I trust, and he said the same as you. They're treating me like a fool, and there is no way I should take it.

There is a little history - I'm an immigrant, they helped me get Permanent Residency, and I've always been underpaid. The company has a chronic history of underpaying and undervaluing tech people.

They need me, no doubt about it, but they're also letting a lot of very, very good people across the company walk out. Three friends in the last three months have stood their ground and eventually just walked out, the company didn't try to offer them anything to stay on, even though they're doing the work of 10 people and are basically irreplaceable.

I think I'll go for the polite yet firm "It's not reasonable to ask me to take on increased word, responsibilities AND be on call with any extra compensation at all. No thanks".

pzxc2• 12 years ago

I like it. Short and to the point.

Hang in there; not all employers suck like that. And you can always be your own boss if you're persistent enough ;-)

But do what you have to do to protect yourself and what you've worked hard for.

devindotcom• 12 years ago

I would add only that it isn't polite to call them unreasonable - just that the offer is not realistic. It's a fact that increased responsibilities demand higher compensation, and you shouldn't have to explain that to them. Make a counter-offer: "Considering the added responsibilities and my extensive experience in the field and within the company, I'll be happy to take the position for $AMOUNT."

karuneshkaushal• 12 years ago

I'm an immigrant, they helped me get Permanent Residency, and I've always been underpaid. The company has a chronic history of underpaying and undervaluing tech people.

Whatever you are considering at this time, please please please do not think in terms of gratitude for this company. They brought you to your current job because of your utility. They are NOT in the business of helping immigrants. At worst, if you leave, another immigrant will get their chance at a Permanent Residency.

Three friends in the last three months have stood their ground and eventually just walked out, the company didn't try to offer them anything to stay on, even though they're doing the work of 10 people and are basically irreplaceable.

I would start looking for other options EVEN IF they offer me better compensation/benefits etc. Any time someone more can leave, leaving you with like double or triple the work. We can be almost sure there are no stock options etc. in your company for tech people. You can't go on negotiating pay every few months. It is hard, and makes you look very selfish: "the company is in a constant 'crisis', and this guy just wants increased comp/benefits." (No matter how self-made the crisis is)

andrewdubinsky• 12 years ago

If your responsibilities increase, and you're charged with more risk of failure (larger projects, more $$$ at stake to the company), then yes, you deserve more pay. You're earning it.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask for more money every pay period OR if you trust them, take it as future raise or bonus (say at end of the year).

You can also ask to have some metrics that will generate a salary commisurate with the job that determine your final end of year pay. e.g. productivity, successful launch etc...

If you determine those firm metrics up front and you hit those targets, you get a bonus, negotiated up front.

In that scenario, they can mitigate their risk that you might not perform in the 'higher' role.

Most, if not all, business people expect some pushback and a negotiation. It's not only commonplace, it's a sign of mutual respect.

Don't be afraid to say "Yes I can do that, but I will need X to make that happen"

grecy2• 12 years ago

Don't be afraid to say "Yes I can do that, but I will need X to make that happen"

Should I go in with a dollar amount in mind, or is it OK to just say "I'm going to need more than your offer".. and see where it goes?

tptacek• 12 years ago

The reality of compensation is that, contrary to the expectations of virtually every tech employee in the universe, it is completely decoupled from job responsibilities and titles.

Compensation is set by supply and demand, and the way those forces augment or sap your negotiating leverage.

Almost every workplace in tech has some set of procedures for routinely adjusting compensation. If you're happy with your comp, you can let those processes grind in the background and get on with your life.

If you're unhappy with your comp, those processes are a trap, and you should (briefly) ignore them. Instead, figure out 1-3 strong arguments for improved compensation. Changes in job responsibility are one good reason; changes in the market are at least as useful. It helps to seem irreplaceable. The reasons you might be perceived as irreplaceable change from quarter to quarter; try to keep track of them.

When your manager appeals to them, politely dismiss them: say something like, "I understand why the system works the way it does, but in this case I think the system isn't capturing my current value. I like my work here too much to allow a process snag to make me unhappy. Because of [REASONS], we need to special-case this conversation. What arrangements can we make to work this out?"

Your manager doesn't want to give you an out-of-process raise. At least one of their reasons is valid: if they develop a reputation for giving out-of-process raises, the whole system goes to hell and the team becomes impossible to manage; perversely, being disorganized but occasionally generous with comp can increase turnover. Defense of process is likely to be your manager's primary objection to giving you a raise (the money probably won't be; it's not their money they're allocating to you).

So anticipate that. Be ready to negotiate for something other than an on-the-spot raise; instead, you can nail down a series of short/medium term milestones. "I'm at 85% of our benchmark compensation for my new role [note: benchmark comp is a fiction]. I'm new to the role, so I understand why you might not want to offer me an immediate improvement. All we need to do is bridge the gap between now and next year's review. Can we come up with targets to hit so that we can do an early review next quarter?"

On a good team, there is nothing your manager is more worried about than turnover: again, supply and demand. The naive way to exploit that fear is to get an offer somewhere else and use it as leverage. This will backfire; unless your management is not only excellent but also very, very in tune with your career (unlikely!), they'll just flip the "damaged goods" bit. They might placate you for a few months, but their new goal --- totally rational --- will to make sure you're not irreplaceable anymore.

So, like I said a few paragraphs ago, find a way to appeal to the turnover concern without putting a gun to their head. "I'm happy, but I could see not being happy in a few months if the situation stays this way" is a little on-the-nose, but it's better than (a) nothing or (b) an ultimatum.

pyfish• 12 years ago

"I'm in a very remote place, so options are limited."

This is the challenge. If you had other options then you can genuinely use them as a negotiating tactic. E.g. "I'd love to stay here. The team and culture is great. But I am also curious about company X and they're offering me 20% more..."

Can you explore working remotely for someone else, perhaps as a lead engineer?

S4M• 12 years ago

I'd suggest a combination of tptacek answer (take the so-called promotion and try to position yourself for a raise in 6 months) while looking for somewhere else, since the company doesn't seem to be the best place to work as a programmer, according to what you say.

You'll be able to sell your promotion better that way.

gexla• 12 years ago

Sounds obvious to me. Negotiate something better. If they can't provide it, then find something different.

I'm actually a Software Engineer and am way overqualified for this position.

I think this is a myth. Nobody is ever overqualified for the position they are in. Getting where you want to be in life requires X skills (which includes way more than just tech) and circumstances. Your mix got you right where you are at. You are exactly qualified for your situation. Also, no matter what your skills, you will never be so highly skilled that you master people and life. Perhaps your issue is that your skill base isn't well enough balanced. Maybe you need to spend less time bolstering your tech skills and more time on bolstering your people skills.

How can I word my reply in such a way to make it sound like I'm very interested, and really want my career to progress, but I also expect (deserve?) a pay rise.

Pour a 40 for careers, they are dead.

Personally, I would probably walk. Negotiate your way out the door to see if they are willing to give you a substantial raise. If they aren't willing, then the value simply isn't there. Bottom line, if you are making the company money, they will go a certain distance to keep you. If you want to be making more money, then you need to be looking for a gig where the value is greater.

If you are afraid you can't get another gig, then you should probably start looking real hard at fixing that. There are a lot of places which provide remote gigs. Start looking around at what's out there and start connecting with people.

Don't think too linearly though. You haven't had a raise for 2 years, you would be moving to 85% and lots of other people have already walked. It appears to me that you aren't going to be making much more money either way. If you dig the job, you are itching for the new position, and the money is okay, then take it.

ETA:

Disclaimer, I'm a freelancer, so moving from one project to another is normal for me. My advice might not be so great for you. ;)

faet• 12 years ago

Just went through this. Initial talks pegged a raise for going from department A to B at ~12-15%. Increased responsibility, etc. They (my manager, new manager, and CIO) signed off on it to move me to B. I was told there was no raise, it was a lateral move. They never told me this prior to moving me and I didn't sign anything. They wouldn't give me 5% no matter how much I argued. I found a new job, 30% over what I was making. I gave my 2 weeks, they offered to match instantly.

solarmass• 12 years ago

You might view this as a chance to get some experience negotiating. Talk with them more to see if there is something to sway you more in a direction. The least to come out of it is a chance to practice a skill that almost everyone sucks at.

When negotiating show up with a basket of items that can be on the table. Extra time off (vacation/personal), company paid training, company time to work on pet projects, travel to conferences, better computer/software, small budget for discretionary purchases, assistants or interns, business paid internet to home, etc. They might be truly stuck on the pay issue but there may be something that can make your job easier given the extra responsibility or recognize that this is a promotion. Flexibility on what you are willing to take helps keeps the negotiation conversation going and gives them something to work with.

Make up a package that suits you and bring it to them (something that really suits you not something you think they will accept). Have them respond and see if they come up with any new ideas.

Then go through the rest of the process; pros and cons, selling yourself vs letting down the company, other issues everyone dwell on to come to a decision like this.

edit: When putting together your package, include a pay increase even though they already said it was not possible.

kasey_junk• 12 years ago

The first advice I'd offer is, find out how much you are actually worth. You mention that you are overqualified for your current position and that your options are limited. Both of those things hint at an employment situation that is in your employers favor. Find out if your current skill set/job market are actually weighted that way (I'd be surprised if that were true given most dev job markets currently, but it might be).

Go out into the job market and talk to people who have jobs you are qualified for and find out how much they make. How does that compare to what you are making? If there are no people in jobs like that near you that is also a signal.

Once you know how much you are actually worth, negotiating for that level of compensation is usually pretty easy.

codeonfire• 12 years ago

Take the "promotion", be sure to put application manager and "promoted to senior x" on your resume and leave to get your raise after three months. Done.

cmdrfred• 12 years ago

I concur, if all else fails this might be the best strategy. The title might be valuable to you in the future.

powatom• 12 years ago

In my experience, a pay-rise is rare unless there is direct pressure from you, or the company believes that they'd be worse off if you were given a better offer elsewhere.

If you have no leverage, then it's not in the company's interests to pay you any more money. It sounds like you've at least queried the lack of a pay-rise, so some options might be:

1: Demand a pay-rise outright. You're being asked to take on more responsibility and accountability with a 'promotion'. It's only fair that your greater sacrifice is rewarded with greater compensation.

2: Negotiate terms of your new contract - additional benefits, or a guaranteed pay-rise after x amount of time, or something else you'd like.

3: Find an external offer, then use that as a negotiating tool. If they really want to keep you, they'll find a way to strike a deal. If not, then at least you can move elsewhere.

Basically this argument that 'you're 100% at your current level, but only 85% at the next level' is bollocks. If the new role is more responsibility, more accountability, and generally more demanding and difficult to do well, then that should be reflected in the compensation. No ifs or buts - anything else is simply taking advantage of people.

A lot can happen in a year - particularly the stresses of taking on more responsibility and having to be more accountable - do they really think it's fair that you should be forced to do this for no extra pay? In a year, what's stopping them 'promoting' you again to an even more difficult job but where you're only at '50% of the benchmark'?

It's a load of horse-shit.

oilandwater• 12 years ago

My fiancé was recently in a similar position. His salary was at 105% of his pay grade and he was working a pay grade below his colleagues. He was interviewing for a position that required relocation and was 2 pay grades above his own.

He interviewed and got the job and blew them out of the water. Because they only do pay grade bumps once per year and you can't go above 105% of your grade's max salary, he was offered the position without a raise.

Relocation to a new city with a slightly higher COL, without a raise. Crazy. Needless to say, he turned down the position.

Anyways, my point is that you're not alone here. It seems to happen more than I had realized.

JSeymourATL• 12 years ago

It's important to know that salary negotiations are best done when you take time to research and practice. In addition to salary, you can also ask for additional PTO, Continuing Ed, Industry Conferences/Workshop attendance, etc...

Here's a good read > http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/06/26/new-grads-h...

Ask HN: Offered new job position, no pay rise. What to do?

Related Stories