Ask HN: Asking for a raise

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=789559

by timmaah • 17 years ago

37 24 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I am terrible at these types of things, but have resolved to get better and sell myself like I should be doing.

I am looking for helpful tips, possibly some advice on how much of a raise to ask for and a decent resource (website/job listing ..etc) to backup/generate my numbers.

A little bit about my current situation. I believe I am vastly underpaid. Probably about 1/2 to 1/3 of market rate. This is mostly because I work for a special interest that depends on donations from the public. I expect a lower rate and a market rate would be more then our executive director makes, but just how much less is one of the places I am stuck. We are also having a great year despite the recession.

My responsibilities include: (note I'm the only tech guy) - Management of website (I rebuilt in RoR. got ~250k visitors last month) - System Admin of servers running said websites - 30 windows office computers and network - Phone system

I'm not sure what to put in as job title when using salary calculators.

mbrubeck• 17 years ago

The biggest thing you can do to improve your chances is to look for work elsewhere. If someone else will pay more for the same work, then you have an obvious bargaining point at your current job. And frankly, it's much more likely that you'll get a significant raise by changing companies. You current employer probably doesn't have another 100-200% of your salary just lying around in a budget somewhere.

timmaah3• 17 years ago

Correct.. I just realized after typing all that in, that if I ask for 5-10%, any number I use as market rate is gonna be much bigger that it doesn't matter.

There doesn't seem to be much of anything in my area for decent paying tech jobs. But I'm looking.. and working on my own start-up, that thanks to HN is making me realize to just get it out the door.

Derrek• 17 years ago

A few months ago I used a few psychological techniques with great success that helped me land a 10k raise.

Basically, I reminded my employer of my value to the market, my value to the company and introduced the suspicion that I was looking elsewhere.

A few recruiters had called the main office asking for my contact information. I replied back to the admin person and made a side comment/joke about my loyalty to the company. She responded with saying that she thought that she should mention my loyalty to the owners.

We had just gotten off a very successful project, and I sent an email to the owners asking if they'd write a recommendation for me on LinkedIn. I framed the request as wanting to get the recommendation now while the success of the project was fresh in their minds. Each one replied something like, "Woah! You aren't leaving, are you?"

These events did three things: reinforced my scarcity, reminded them of my value to the company and let them consider the possibility of me leaving.

Shortly thereafter, I got a 10k raise without even asking for it. :)

If you don't want to go through so much effort start looking for another job or start your own. As far as job title, put in the one that you would most enjoy and go for that.

furyg3• 17 years ago

It's amazing how these little things have a big impact on a negotiation. In fact, sometimes you can inadvertantly enter into a negotiation...

Once I was called into my boss' office, complimented on my work, and offered a salary raise. I was caught off guard (there was no big project that I recently completed or anything), but managed to contain my glee. In light of all the nice things my boss just said about me, I asked for a bit more then they were offering, negotiated a bit, and walked out with a nice deal.

Later I found out that there was a rumor around the office that I must have been interviewing and that's why I had been coming in a little later and wearing fancy clothes. Really it was just that I had a new girlfriend who worked at a high-end clothing retailer (discount!), and lived a bit further out of town (thus coming in later).

sachinag• 17 years ago

You're at a non-profit? OK, let me be clear: if you leave, your NP is fucked.

If market is more than the ED makes, and you want to make anywhere near market, you have to leave. They're dramatically underpaying market, and have to for structural reasons, so they won't be able to hire someone anywhere near as good as you. To retain you at market, they'd essentially have to go on a special fundraising binge to pay your salary. That's untenable in this fundraising environment.

Also, the title thing is hard because you're doing two very different jobs: software engineer and helpdesk.

I'd recommend that you leave if the money is important, but you should (if you reasonably can) try to lock things down so that there won't be much in the way of maintenance of the website. The office computers and phone can be troubleshot with one-off contractors (again, helpdesk); there's no way to "bring in someone from the bullpen" to put out fires on a complex RoR app. (For one, NPs have no idea how to recruit or verify the credentials of someone like that.)

timmaah3• 17 years ago

You pretty much nailed it.

flashingpumpkin• 17 years ago

Maybe you could also check if your could get away with spending 1 or 2 weekdays freelancing out of your non-profit orga's offices. I've workd for quite a while for nonprofits too and had good experiences - that is, if you're not already totally overworked.

com• 17 years ago

This is a really great suggestion - many non-profits will go for it; keeps their staff (you) happy, keeps you connected to them, and they can bother you on "freelance days" too.

But that's the problem: you've probably already got more on your plate than a time-serving big-corporate IT person would. And being present means that you're first and foremost available to the people in your vicinity.

Keeping the relationship with the NP in good shape can be hard work; some colleagues may consider you a money-hungry sell-out (and the conversations with your customers may just reinforce this idea), more problematically keeping the perception of balance in your interest in the NP versus outside clients could be difficult.

Good luck!

gatormax• 17 years ago

Well said. There isn't really a universal answer to this sort of question, so it's good that the submitter included the particulars. Incidentally, this is an example of the benefit of having well developed business and social sense --- those "soft skills" which I would recommend cultivating.

falsestprophet• 17 years ago

It sounds like the organization can afford less than half of him. So, it may be advantageous for everyone to cut his work in half. In that event, he would be able to freelance or work half time at another similar organization or work on building a new company.

timmaah3• 17 years ago

This is what I am going to try and attempt. If I can get what I've been working on after work up and running by the end of the year, I can hopefully split things 50/50 until I can go 100% on my own.

californiaguy• 17 years ago

> note I'm the only tech guy

This is the #1 indicator that you are underpaid. Just ask for your desired salary and if you don't get it, quit. If you can't quit without being in financial trouble - that's your problem. You won't be getting a raise then.

Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.

wlievens• 17 years ago

Except he might actually like working there.

gte910h2• 17 years ago

Don't ask for percentages.

Ask for a flat amount. They don't pay you in %'s, they pay you in dollars. Point this out to them if they try to point out the percentage.

Say X is the rate advertised for any of these places. I'm not looking, but feel I deserve a raise of at least ____

chriseppstein2• 17 years ago

Once you get to six figures, I recommend using percentages ;-)

gte910h2• 17 years ago

If you're asking in %'s, you're likely not asking for enough :oD

haseman• 17 years ago

I've had success in asking for a raise with a technique that breaks down into two parts:

First, frame the issue as a problem for you. A problem your bosses can help you with: I.E. your unhappy about the mismatch between your salary and your responsibilities. You leave step one when your bosses agree with you that it's a problem. I'd try to stay away from specific numbers and focus on your needs/feelings. Be general, talk about how others in your area are paid more, but shy away from exactly how much. This allows your manager to 'help' you with your problem without a commitment to what the 'help' might look like. Bosses _love_ to be helpful.

Second, once they admit that there is a problem, you can start talking about a solution. Remember, your bosse's hands may be tied with rules about max raises, bonus schedules, review cycles, and other such crap the corporate world throws in front of good bosses. So, before hand, figure out what solutions you'd be willing to accept. Maybe a deferred raise, bonus, more vacation, less work hours for the same pay. Try to be as flexible and honest as you can. The second stage is your time to start talking about specifics, but try to accommodate the limitations placed on your boss. That said, do your homework, if your boss is lying to you, don't call them out, just get ready to walk.

Last, be prepared to quit. It's hard to talk about how unhappy you are at your job if you haven't thought about alternatives. If it goes well you won't have to leave, but it's good to go into the discussion with the confidence that you could quit if you had to.

Good luck!

kitcar• 17 years ago

Before you go in to discuss your raise, first sit down and try to write down the exact economic contribution you have made to the firm - ideally link cost-savings or revenue-generation directly to the activities you have performed.

This activity will serve two purposes:

1) Provide you with additional confidence that you are justified in asking for a raise

2) If during the salary discussion your employer asks "why should you get a raise?" rather than responding "Because elsewhere people make more money!" You can say "Because I made (or saved) the company $XX,XXX amount of money last - hence it would be cheaper to give me the raise than to not have me around next year!

auston2• 17 years ago

In my experience, employers are not particularly happy when you do this kind of thing. I can't tell you for sure, but my assumption is it's make them feel weak or helpless & the last thing they want is to seem like that, especially to a key employee.

Maybe find a more subtle way to push this, but being very direct (for me) has only ended up with an employer who is upset that I know my role is delivering 5-7x my salary.

mds• 17 years ago

If you really want to stay in your current position (ie. you have a strong desire to contribute to the goals of that organization), another option would be to negotiate reduced hours for the same pay (say, 20 hours/week).

Depending on the organization, you might be able to recruit some part time volunteer or intern help to pick up the slack.

Then use the extra time for side consulting and/or working on a startup.

zck• 17 years ago

Think of it this way -- the difference between your salary and your market value is effectively money you're donating to the nonprofit. If you don't want to donate that much, either ask for a raise, or quit, get a new job, and write a check to the nonprofit.

chriseppstein2• 17 years ago

Salary is important and in more ways than just having more money. Titles vary at different companies and have different meanings, so salary is the easiest way for a bigger company to place you into a title at that company. Once you're in the company, sadly, title matters since most people at a company don't know what each other make. So if you want to advance your career, you actually have to get raises with every promotion. Don't accept a promotion without a corresponding pay raise -- since promotion means either more work or more responsibility.

Changing jobs is the easiest way to make more money. If you change too often, you'll be pegged as unreliable, so the strategy only works to a point.

Your job should be giving you annual reviews, this is a good time to get a raise and if you don't get one, complain about it. If you don't get annual reviews, asking for one is a nice way of saying you'd like a raise and feedback is actually really nice in either direction (compliments, points of improvement).

Threatening to leave is the worst way to get a raise. But it is important for your employer to understand that you can leave and that you choose to stay -- such loyalty is rare and is something that should be rewarded, with money.

If it comes to it, get an offer in hand from the new company that you are going to go to. Then quit. Don't threaten to quit. And don't bring up money as the reason unless they ask why you decided to leave. Then say "I needed more money, I love working here, but I understand your budget constraints and didn't want to put you in a tough spot." It's business. You're not an asshole for leaving. There's no contract that says you must stay and don't think for an instant that you're so effing awesome that you wouldn't get layed off if they had to do it. It's business. Because it's business and money is now in play (assuming they asked) they might decide to make a counter offer. If they don't, you're taking the new job. If they do, it's because you deserve it and they've decided that the cost of replacing you (explicit cost and opportunity cost) is higher than your raise. Yes, you're replaceable, and despite what others have said, your NP is not fucked. They will survive without you.

By the way, if you're awesome and your boss is awesome, this is never an issue, I've asked for raises casually over beer or whatever, and got them before. A few thousand here, a few thousand there adds up in time. Keep a 5 to 10 year perspective on things.

Lastly, I would point out that salary is not everything. I've made more at other jobs than the one I have now and hated them. It's hard to put a price on happiness.

trevelyan• 17 years ago

No-one else is posting from the perspective of an employer, so let me point out what seems obvious to me. No-one who works for a non-profit is going to be making what you refer to as "market rates". You signed up for a lower salary when you joined, and so unless you get satisfaction from the mission of the non-profit you should move on. Otherwise the salary issue will canker over time and you may even come to resent the non-profit for being... a non-profit.

The most important thing is that you do not leave the organization in the lurch. You do not want to be remembered as the guy who pushed them onto ROR and then bailed leaving them with a system they couldn't use. Or the guy who signed on when the economy was rough and then started complaining about salary six months in. Basically, avoid letting the money issue come between you and your coworkers/employers since it is probably not their priority. Figure out your long-term goals and move towards them while giving others time to adjust.

auston2• 17 years ago

From what I have seen, it's either going to be really tough to get a raise, OR very easy.

I've tried to use bargaining chips like having a job that paid significantly more to try and hike up my salary (didn't work in 1 case, worked very easily in another).

Simply asking for a raise while alluding to your value in cost savings, other pending offers & highlighting your loyalty, know-how & good work ethic will usually do the trick. If not, be ready to move, quickly.

Ask HN: Asking for a raise

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