Foreigners Attending US Grad Schools Way Down: Wake Up, Xenophobes

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/23/foreigners-attending-us-grad-schools-way-down-wake-up-xenophobes/

by vaksel • 17 years ago

80 92 17 years ago

"And nearly every CEO will tell you how much added cost and hassle there is in hiring a foreign-born worker—they do it because they physically can not find enough appropriately skilled workers in the U.S."

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. A lot of people say killing the H1B program would instantly create 50,000 new jobs for Americans. Ask the next person that tells you this to solve a deeply technical problem for you, just to see if he can actually perform the immigrant's work. There should be a notion of the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

nearlyacanuck7• 17 years ago

If you kick out all the Indians/Chinese/Russians then American kids will all switch from law school to doing physics PhDs to take all the superbly paid jobs in American industry. It's only the presence of foreigners that is causing Americans to fail science and forcing them to aim for law and MBAs in their struggle to find a job.

arghnoname• 17 years ago

It's true that a lot of kids follow the money. I'm sure a lot of students in IT in India and other places are doing it for economic reasons, so it isn't like this is universally a bad thing. In my own case, I like computers, but I like other things as well, and it's sensible to go with what is most economically advantageous.

I started school in 1998 and watched people switch away from Comp Sci due to concerns about outsourcing and immigration, and when the dotcoms imploded, the bottom fell out. I hear the argument that immigrants provide jobs, and that might be true (I can see both side of the argument and am willing to admit ignorance on which is correct), but perception often trumps reality.

IT seems to be at the forefront of outsourcing and foreign labor pressures. I'm sure proponents would say that's also why it's such a dynamic industry, but undoubtedly anxiety about this issue hurts enrollment and interest by native born peoples. If we want to support high skill immigration (I favor this over outsourcing greatly), we need to sell it more effectively as an engine for job growth. I don't think the case has been effectively made. Perhaps some of these immigrant founded companies should pool resources and put an ad campaign up to put a face on the positive effects.

RiderOfGiraffes• 17 years ago

I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic and expressing your point in that manner, but the downvotes show that here on HN many people have a sarcasm detector that doesn't work. Think "Sheldon" from "Big Bang Theory."

Of course, I choose to believe that you are intelligent, therefore cannot possibly mean what you appeared to say, and hence must have been being sarcastic. If I'm wrong, then perhaps you could clarify.

mattlanger• 17 years ago

"Make no mistake: This is a huge blow for the United States, and particularly Silicon Valley."

This is not a new phenomenon: graduate programs saw a similar decline immediately following Sept. 11, and it only turned around a few years later when certain internationally hostile components of the Patriot Act and other national security legislation were reversed.

Second: there is nothing about this blow that is "particular" to Silicon Valley. When graduate students are being denied visas, all programs and professions suffer. Our culture and economy are as adversely affected by a scarcity of engineering candidates as it is by a dearth of humanities scholars.

ahoyhere2• 17 years ago

As a person with a foreign national husband (then-boyfriend) of several years, I can tell you that even the visiting process for foreigners has gotten worse since 2006.

We looked into him moving to the US and it was beyond ridiculous. So I moved to Austria.

Yeah, by "foreign national" I meant Austria. Nothing like coming back home from your trip to Vienna and being questioned for 10 minutes about where you met your boyfriend, and where did he grow up... like I have been. What could I have gotten up to, sneaking in 10 pounds of pure, medical grade schnitzel?

I agree with the article's premise. The xenophobia in the US is astounding, and getting worse.

ijnouibiu3• 17 years ago

The US has to crack down on importing Austrians - look what happened in California

ido2• 17 years ago

> As a person with a foreign national husband (then-boyfriend) of several years, I can tell you that even the visiting process for foreigners has gotten worse since 2006.

But as far as I know EU citizens (which most definitely includes Austrians) do not require a visa to visit the US for up to 3 months - is that incorrect?

mustpax5• 17 years ago

As a foreigner who has been successfully ousted from the U. S. by the H1-B quota, let me tell you that life is better in Canada.

The permanent residence program for skilled labor in Canada is infinitely less cumbersome and convoluted than the green card track in the U.S. More importantly, it only takes about a year or so, regardless of your nationality (hi Indians).

As for taxes, I was paying taxes in California, so the difference in total taxes is really not that much. Plus you get free healthcare. The healthcare benefits I get from my employer on top of government healthcare really goes above and beyond what I've seen in the U.S.

So, yeah folks, please do as I did, vote with your feet. No one deserves to have their hard work viewed as parasitic.

vijayr2• 17 years ago

Just a year? that is awesome.

What about other restrictions? Do you need to be 'tied' to a employer, like in US? Can you start companies? (not possible on H1-B)

mustpax5• 17 years ago

Check out the Canadian Gov't website on skilled employment: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp

You don't have to be in Canada, or work for a Canadian company, to apply. There are multiple criteria for determining who is eligible, if you have an employer sponsor it makes it easier to qualify. But if you have decent amount of personal savings, a Bachelors degree, a couple years of experience you can qualify without one.

The temporary work permit, the Canadian equivalent of the H1-B, is more restrictive. You are tied to your employer, probably can't start your own company. But this is completely orthogonal to your permanent residence application. You can do your thing, work outside Canada until your permanent residence is granted, then fly over and start up.

nearlyacanuck7• 17 years ago

The only restrictions are you can't vote in federal elections and can't join the army. To keep PR you have to be resident for 3 out of every 5 years, but after 3 years you can get Canadian citizenship.

You can work for anyone or no-one, start your own business or continue working for a foreign company.

You are subject to intensive interogation by Canadian immigration every time you enter the country. You will be grilled for several seconds on topics such as 'how are you?' and 'did you have a good flight?' - other than that it's the same as entering America.

thras3• 17 years ago

Canada is far more restrictive about non-skilled immigration than the U.S. It's the political decision to turn America half-hispanic by the next century -- despite what anybody here actually wants -- that has killed enthusiasm for skilled immigration in America.

If we want more and better skilled immigrants, we need more xenophobes, not less. Limit unskilled immigration, and Americans will be happy about skilled immigration.

davidw4• 17 years ago

> It's the political decision to turn America half-hispanic by the next century

Part of the reason I dislike seeing political articles here is that they invariably draw out some seriously uninformed, inane, hand-waving types of comments that would be completely unacceptable when attached to technical articles.

Do you have any evidence that there has been a "political decision to turn America half hispanic"? Not 60%? Not 40%? Who took it - the Obama Death Panels?

> If we want more and better skilled immigrants, we need more xenophobes, not less.

"More xenophobes" would not like the "brown people" from India, "slanty eyed" eastern Asians, or most Europeans either for that matter (they're probably communists), even if they're qualified. After all, they are xenophobes, right?

Locke16894• 17 years ago

What's wrong with us turning half-Hispanic? Hell, I'm a white male -- we've had our... thousand or so years; let someone else have their day. I'd be far more worried about the education level of the future generations than the racial make-up.

pkaler• 17 years ago

Just to be clear, Canadian Health Care is not "free". It is publicly-funded and privately-delivered through a single-payer insurance system. For example, my MSP payments are $250 or so for each quarter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Health_Act

I think we should be extra clear about how the Canadian system actually works especially given the debate currently in the US.

potatolicious5• 17 years ago

Good point, but the point still stands: "free" in this case doesn't mean not paying for it, but rather that it's a flat-fee service with no exhaustible upper bound on usage (e.g. if you get hospitalized 5 times in a year the insurance company won't bail).

In the Canadian system there is no chance that the insurance company will weasel out of a payment using a litany of the common excuses that are used in the USA. If you are covered, you are covered, and that's peace of mind you can't even buy with money in America.

mustpax5• 17 years ago

Thanks for the clarification. I did not mean to disregard the considerable costs of providing universal healthcare.

For what it's worth, given my tax bracket and that I'm in my twenties, financially speaking, I am most likely a net win for the system.

potatolicious5• 17 years ago

How do you find the salary difference? I'm a Canadian currently in the USA because American companies were offering me nearly double what any Canadian company was willing to offer...

I'd be interested to know if this trend only applies to new grads, or if Canadians simply earn consistently and significantly less than Americans when it comes to engineering.

nearlyacanuck7• 17 years ago

That is still a problem, especially in BC. Everybody wants to live in Vancouver, so they can pay peanuts

mustpax5• 17 years ago

I do make less (around 10% less) in Canada than I did in the states. But then I pay almost half of what I paid for rent in San Francisco. Food was better and cheaper in San Francisco, but that's not my biggest expense. So I end up saving more overall.

I'm working for the same company that I was working for in the U.S. So that might explain why my income is pretty consistent.

xexers• 17 years ago

I am Canadian. I find the culture towards imigrants is much better than what I see on the news in the USA. We welcome most imigrants.

However, there are still lots of problems with the system in Canada - mostly that we only take in university educated people, but we really need tradespeople as well.

nearlyacanuck7• 17 years ago

There are 2 parallel systems. Permanent Resient takes a few years to process, requires higher education but has very few limits. Then each province has a fast track for needed skills, you must have a job offer and have some specific trade/qualification but it takes < year. IFAIK you can change jobs once you get there.

nearlyacanuck7• 17 years ago

There is (was?) a program in Alberta to fast track PR for any H1B holder - so if any highly skilled foreigners in the US just made it to the border they were welcome. Of course you end up working in Alberta !

pg2• 17 years ago

One advantage of funding so many startups is that we can observe trends among them. Immigration issues seem to be the single biggest external source of pain for startups right now.

The second biggest is the iPhone app store approval process. And the two have a lot in common: absolute judgements made by people who don't really understand what they're judging, and who are not subject to any kind of external forces themselves.

jhancock5• 17 years ago

Can you provide some specifics? You say you observe this trend in YC startups? Is it because people are applying as they finish school and need a different visa to stay and participate in YC? Is it because you get lots of applicants from people not in the U.S. and they can't even get a visa to fly over for the interview? It can't be because the founders can't "hire" good talent. The YC process isn't enough to pay salaries.

immad• 17 years ago

YC startups grow up and get funding and then can pay salaries. Pg gets to observe that too.

But I think PG was mainly referring to non-US YC applicants that want to continue staying in the valley after the 3 months. In general a YC round is about 10-20% foreign

e402• 17 years ago

There are several people I'd like to hire, but can't because they're outside the US. It's really too bad, because they're a perfect fit for our team. We've been looking in the US but can't find anyone that fits nearly as well. <sigh>

nir• 17 years ago

Why don't you hire them to work remotely then?

look_lookatme• 17 years ago

Can you elaborate on why you cannot find a person in the US that fits as well as these candidates from another country? Pure technical ability?

Also, why can you not employ these people remotely?

idlewords• 17 years ago

You require the people you fund to spend three months in the United States, so there is a strong selection effect in this "trend".

pg2• 17 years ago

There is, but it's in the other direction. It means fewer of the startups we fund have non-US founders than would be the case without this constraint.

DTrejo• 17 years ago

PG, would you and Y Combinator be in a place to improve this situation?

A coalition of influential and prominent Silicon Valley companies could really have an effect on things (hopefully).

Edit: Seems like some of this is already happening, nevermind.

jhancock5• 17 years ago

This is a highly uneven article.

"It’s happening: Lou Dobbs’ dream come true and Silicon Valley’s worst nightmare."

ok, lets start the article by sprinkling some politics on it.

"We’re already seeing the reverse brain drain as smart immigrants take their US educations and experience building companies and creating technology back to their home countries."

ok, maybe this is happening. Any numbers on that? Any success figures on people who were in the U.S. and went back to their home country to successfully found a startup and create jobs?

"But now, xenophobia and the lack of any sensible H-1B visa policy is keeping the world’s brightest minds from coming to the U.S. in the first place."

Really? Sure, the visa programs are tight. The sentence starts with "But now" as if something happened. Maybe something did happen. The economy is certain way down. China is way up. India is doing pretty well too. But did I miss something? Have visa policies been changed in the last 18 months?

That's just the first 3 sentences. This article has a lot of spirit but not much substance.

bbgm2• 17 years ago

It was much easier to get a green card when I applied (pre 9/11) than it is today. I know some people with amazing qualifications, successful track records, who've been in the green card process for years. Plus the "are you a permanent resident" question is far more of a blocker now than it used to be. Combine that with opportunities back home and in other countries and you have a problem.

I don't have numbers, but there is enough anecdotal evidence out there. It's not necessarily a bad thing for the home country, but not having options is frustrating.

jhancock5• 17 years ago

Should the "are you a permanent resident" question continue to be a roadblock? Its my understanding the visa programs are meant to help out the U.S. long term by bringing in immigrants that makes the U.S. their home (my favorite reason) and short term to fill immediate skill shortage. If you do not intend to stay by being a permanent resident, why should the government lend a hand?

This is a serious question? Any answers on this? Maybe a better question is what are reasons that people do not want to become a permanent resident?

ujjwalg• 17 years ago

I completely agree with Sarah. Being a PhD student about to finish in sciences and starting my own company which is already ramen profitable, the biggest concern of mine is how can I stay in US, after I am done with my PhD. I am not that worried about funding, revenues, marketing as much as I am worried about immigration. I wish there was something like PG mentioned in the founders visa article or things are much easier if you are a PhD in STEM in US. I am preparing myself to move back at this point.

caffeine• 17 years ago

Canada, baby! Or the UK. The UK is a great place to be.

yummyfajitas2• 17 years ago

This article ignores the fact that student visas are a ridiculously expensive way to recruit foreign talent.

A PhD student costs $20-50k/year ($20k stipend, training costs which vary by field, even private universities are heavily subsidized by the govt), so figure costs of $100-250k/student. If 50% of student visas become citizens, that's a cost of $200k-500k per new skilled citizen.

Visas for skilled workers are a much more cost effective way of recruiting high skill talent. Auctioning off citizenship/visas would also be more effective.

Student visas are nothing but a subsidy to the college industry.

ardit33• 17 years ago

huh? Foreign students have to pay tuition just as everybody else, even worse, they don't get 'in-state' breaks, or federal loans, or any other help american students get.

All scholarships they get are merit based, (either academic, or sports), otherwise they will have to pay their own schooling.

yummyfajitas2• 17 years ago

PhD students (the ones I was referring to) don't pay tuition and get stipends of about $20k/year. The real cost is about $30-50k/year.

Even students who pay tuition are not paying the full cost of their education in most cases. College is highly subsidized and 'in-state' tuition breaks comprise only a portion of that subsidy.

It's bad enough that we subsidize college. It's even more wasteful to funnel money to colleges as an alleged way to recruit high skill workers. It's simply not necessary; if we want high skill workers, all we need to do is pick a number and issue that many visas. We can probably even make it revenue positive by issuing visas by auction, rather than by queuing.

artaak2• 17 years ago

"costs $20-50k/year" - pardon, but where did you learn it from? Even if PhD students get tuition waivers, the waivers are given along with Teaching or Research Assistant positions. In other words, the PhD students are paid for some assistance, they are not just given the money. And Teaching Assistance at the university (especially, public school) might not be so much fun as it might seem. Not surprisingly, the percentage of Americans in graduate science programs is small.

rams• 17 years ago

vaksel, Do you work for TechCrunch ? You seem to regularly submit TC articles. Just curious. thx.

davidw4• 17 years ago

A lot of people have techcrunch in their "feed readers", and it's an obvious karma generator, for those who are into that kind of thing.

pmorici• 17 years ago

Isn't Lou Dobb's thing usually rallying against illegal unskilled immigrant labor particularly from Mexico? What does that have to do with the skilled H-1B issue. I admittedly don't watch Dobbs, ever, but it seems like techcrunch is just trying to pick a fight.

drawkbox• 17 years ago

Tesla brought us many great things and he was an immigrant. With that I would just add that it is not just immigrants from China and India that we should be courting and treating better.

We should be getting immigrants from all over the world not just the larger cheaper labor markets. Tesla was from Serbia (Croatia now). We should not have any precedence or preference to where smart immigrants are from.

But remember this, the larger the group of people, the more there are better skilled workers. But also the larger the group of people the more there are mediocre or substandard skilled workers.

This doesn't mean that every skilled person we let in will be good. Sure there will be more quality candidates from larger populaces than the US, but there will also be that many less skilled workers to the scale of the originating country compared to the US.

I am all for open immigration for skilled people and I think other countries should have the same policies. Largely on the latter point, they are just as xenophobic as the US is on this matter.

geebee• 17 years ago

I do think there's some real hyperbole in this article. A 3% decline (that appears to be the figure cited in this article) may be a troublesome trend, but I'm not sure I'd call it "way down".

The author also cites the loss of diversity in graduate programs. All I have is personal experience: as an American in a PhD program in Engineering at Berkeley, I became very, very accustomed to being the only person in the room who spoke english as a first language. People who were born in California (or came up through the Californian educational system) are definitely a minority in these graduate programs (This is rare - Indians a not tiny minority in the grad programs at IIT. I doubt that French citizens a tiny minority at the École Polytechnique?). Personally, I think it would be a good trend for the US if 60% of the students in our graduate STEM programs had come up through our own educational system.

I read so much bile in both directions - and by throwing out the "xenophobe" accusation I think that the author of this post just added a bit more bile. I can understand why someone might start to equate criticism of the H1B program with xenophobes after glancing at some of the comments (and let's be fair here, there's often a tremendous amount of anti-americanism in these comments on H1B issues as well), but I insist that a person can reasonably want to see a higher percentage of US citizens in STEM programs in american universities, and should be able to advocate this without being called a xenophobe.

00joe• 17 years ago

Reading Techcrunch is like watching Fox News - Breaking News!!!!!! OMG the world is going to end!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Foreigners Attending US Grad Schools Way Down: Wake Up, Xenophobes

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