Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/08/software-developers-should-never-have.html

by edw519 • 17 years ago

32 46 17 years ago

kirkwylie.blogspot.com

There's no justification for a dress code policy in this day and age if you view the primary function of a software developer to be the development of software.

I think dress codes are idiotic in most cases, but I understand them. This author does not.

Programmers always want their job to be slinging code in a cave somewhere where people slide a pizza and a list of features under a door and pure beautiful code comes out on a regular basis.

It never works that way, however. Programmers are social creatures, like it or not, and that means that all kinds of social stuff is part of working with other people. Things like dress codes, manners, good body hygiene, interviewing, and conflict resolution skills are just as critical as hacking skills.

I don't think dress codes help that much, but I understand why companies have them. I always say that it's the people that is so critical in this work. Everybody wants to focus on the technology, but that's a very, very small part of it.

KirkWylie5• 17 years ago

No, I actually think most programmers don't want the old-skool Microsoft approach of not emerging from their private offices more than once a week. I honestly believe that most programmers are social creatures just like any other human being, which explains why we're so active in online discussions of all forms.

I think you're right in that soft skills are massively important to working in any large organization, and for any organization where you're developing software for in-house users (like big banks). Communication, conflict resolution, good working habits (like good body hygiene), these are all critical parts of being effective in your job not just as a programmer, but as a member of a software development organization.

I just don't see "what clothes you're wearing" as factoring into that equation.

krschultz• 17 years ago

Power. In a company where the programmers are not making the product, I wouldn't want to go to a meeting with the guy giving the specs underdressed. It marginalizes you even more. The guys in the suits view the programmers as support, them showing up in professional attire and you dressed like their 16 year old son won't help the matter.

I would say slacks and a button down shit, with no tie is fine. I think wearing a tie to work is silly at this point, but t-shirts/shorts/flip flops at a place where others are dressed up makes you seems lower on the totem pole.

That said, I work at a startup where everyone wears t-shirts and flip flops, so what do I know?

aplusbi• 17 years ago

I don't think it's about what programmers want, it's more about programmers idealized view of the world. Programmers believe in meritocracies, and judging people based on their clothing is antithetical to a meritocracy.

Many programmers have trouble reconciling the fact that the "real world" doesn't conform to their ideals and actively try to reject it.

jswinghammer• 17 years ago

I totally agree that dress codes are sort of silly but it's hard to turn down a job if you need one. I have a family that I need to look after and I can't really afford to put my preferences ahead of them having a nice place to live in and eating. I might turn down the offer if the economy was better but if I had to get a job and a financial services company offered me a job and I felt like my options were limited I'd have no choice but to take it. I'd leave that job at my first opportunity in all likelihood because I don't like dress codes much at all. It's possible though that the job is great apart from that silly policy so maybe it'd be worth putting up with for other reasons.

My mom is a CPA and she asked me why programmers always wanted to wear jeans and a t-shirt. The only reason I gave to her that made sense to her was that it's a culture thing.

KirkWylie5• 17 years ago

Actually, you've hit the nail on the head as to why I ended up at Big Bank B wearing "business casual" in the first place: I got caught up in one of the mass casualties of the Credit Crunch, and I needed to support my family, and they were hiring. It's totally understandable. Still a stupid policy on the part of the employer though.

gcheong2• 17 years ago

I'd say it's more of a comfort thing than a cultural thing, like the same reason I don't wear a suit to bed, but I agree it's not worth sacrificing financial stability. Incidentally, the last financial services company I worked at was pretty casual about their "business casual" dress code. As long as you weren't in a client-facing position you could pretty much wear what you wanted.

hughprime• 17 years ago

It's important to note that even jobs without dress codes usually wind up having some sort of unofficial dress code. I personally would love to show up to work every day in a suit, but I can't really do that because my boss and all my coworkers are showing up in t-shirts (I work in academia).

Incidentally, the temptation of being able to wear a suit every day is one of the things that nearly drove me from physics into quant finance.

iron_ball• 17 years ago

Yeah, we shouldn't forget that a well-fitting suit can look really sharp. It can be a status marker (or status illusion), its default tailoring makes you look taller and thinner, the jacket provides convenient extra pockets (this is important to me), and if it has good materials it can be as comfortable as anything.

bluedanieru2• 17 years ago

Another thing to keep in mind if you are working at, or considering working at, a bank or other financial institution is that the business basically hates their IT department. Not personally of course, but rather it seems to be viewed as very peripheral to their core business (of what, scamming people out of their savings and cashing large checks from their respective national governments?). Even as algorithmic trading becomes more important to their bottom line, tech seems to be a pain in the ass and something to think about as little as possible for a lot of people. Software developers seem lower on the totem pole than most, as well, though that might be bias on my part.

I have only worked for Japanese banks, so YMMV, but this seems to be the case even for the foreign guys pulled from overseas institutions, of whom we've got a lot.

KirkWylie5• 17 years ago

Really? If you decide to move to London or New York, I have a number of very tech friendly financial institutions I could introduce you to. And anybody attempting to do algo trading without A-list technical talent will soon find that they can't keep up.

CarolynM• 17 years ago

Oh come on, programmers aren't special. (I know, I am one). Clothes are communication. You dress to a minimal standard to show respect for others, and to communicate "seriousness". Sometimes, you have to spell the standard out out. I have worked with people who wear torn or worn out t-shirts and similarly worn out shorts. It turns off some potential employees and customers who catch a glimpse of them - fair or not.

Sure, it's a little silly to insist on suits for someone crawling on the floor (I still remember in incident with a skirt, an awkward cable, and a customer tour coming in at the wrong moment). But if you work in an industry where it's the standard, how hard is it to leave a jacket and tie at work in case of meetings? Really...

bluedanieru2• 17 years ago

Well sure, you probably shouldn't wear literally anything you want at work, and torn or worn-out clothes are out of bounds in any semi-formal social situation anyway. So you should at least look as though you put some thought into what you wore to work and how you present yourself. Programmers might not be special, but neither is a suit and tie. A suit is not standard attire for programmers generally, and much like it would be unreasonable to demand a plumber wear one, it is unreasonable in most cases to demand an engineer wear one. Especially so when the rationale is one of those described in the article.

kingkongrevenge4• 17 years ago

What I really don't get is these people who seem to WANT to look like shit. We don't have a dress code here. I could easily wear jeans over half the time. But I don't and nobody else does because it looks horrible. Personally, I find being surrounded by well dressed people a substantial workplace selling point.

Do you have any idea how juvenile and tasteless you look in cheap jeans and sneakers? Do you realize how much dramatically better you look with proper shoes and well cut wool pants? To give up that advantage just indicates idiocy to me.

msluyter• 17 years ago

Wool? That's a dirty word here in 100 degree+ Austin, TX. Otherwise, matters of style/taste are subjective, or, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Pretty much everyone in our office wears jeans and, shrug, it just doesn't seem to have any negative impact that I can observe.

steveklabnik• 17 years ago

> Do you have any idea how juvenile and tasteless you look in cheap jeans and sneakers? Do you realize how much dramatically better you look with proper shoes and well cut wool pants? To give up that advantage just indicates idiocy to me.

I won't deny that dressing up is a social advantage, but sometimes people care about some things more than strictly getting ahead. It's entirely possible that an individual could place more value on being comforatble than on getting that raise or promotion.

AndrewDucker• 17 years ago

See, that's a matter of taste. I think suits look ridiculous, and jeans look much more like clothes that real people wear, rather than a costume.

donw2• 17 years ago

This.

An interview candidate showing up in a T-shirt is a serious black mark, not because I care about how they dress at work, but because they don't care enough about the interview to put on a shirt with buttons and a pair of dress shoes.

If somebody has that level of respect for me, the company, or the whole song-and-dance process, what are they going to be like to work with? What happens when we need them to deal with customers?

Sure, they may be an amazing coder, but a bit of politeness and some social graces make for a better working environment any day.

prodigal_erik• 17 years ago

If I rightly expect to be able to manipulate you using nothing more than a cheap costume, what I'm doing merely looks like respect. Dressing down means I've decided I can take you seriously.

kingkongrevenge4• 17 years ago

The responses in this thread are convincing me that a dress code is a great idea. It would keep out the socially clueless nerds nobody wants to be around.

mannicken• 17 years ago

You're implying that there are only two options: strict dress code and a bunch of smelly guys wearing torn jeans/old tshirts.

>Clothes are communication.

Bingo. But what is dress code if not an attempt at killing communication?

So what do you have when you have all employees dressed in slacks and shirts and suits? Isn't it an attempt at supressing communication? An attempt at supressing individuality and instead forcing a corporate culture of obedience, brainwashing, mindless loyalty and mediocrity?

Fuck that! I will not be forced to be dressed in a suit. I might choose to wear a suit if I want to communicate obedience and professionalism. I might choose to wear a turtleneck sweater and jeans. I might choose to wear a ripped tshirt and shorts. I might choose to wear a robe or pajamas. See where I'm going with this?

You are asking for communication yet asking me to lie? You want respect? Fuck respect, fuck professionalism, and fuck all these things that make life sour, dead, and joyless.

You say respect and seriousness. Since when did respect became better than honesty and truthfulness? Since when did "seriousness" became more important that joyful curiousity, aesthetics, and playfulness? Since when banality became better than destructive creativity?

I will die, I know that. And I will not spend my short life dressed up and living like some fucking corporate schmuck wants me to because it's "professional" or "serious".

Yeah, programmers aren't special. I'm not arguing that programmers should be exceptions to dress code. I'm arguing that dress code in itself should be placed on the shelf with slavery, religion, and all those other retarded mores.

gcheong2• 17 years ago

Interesting take on this from Hamming's essay "You and Your Research" (http://paulgraham.com/hamming.html):

Another personality defect is ego assertion and I'll speak in this case of my own experience. I came from Los Alamos and in the early days I was using a machine in New York at 590 Madison Avenue where we merely rented time. I was still dressing in western clothes, big slash pockets, a bolo and all those things. I vaguely noticed that I was not getting as good service as other people. So I set out to measure. You came in and you waited for your turn; I felt I was not getting a fair deal. I said to myself, ``Why? No Vice President at IBM said, `Give Hamming a bad time'. It is the secretaries at the bottom who are doing this. When a slot appears, they'll rush to find someone to slip in, but they go out and find somebody else. Now, why? I haven't mistreated them.'' Answer, I wasn't dressing the way they felt somebody in that situation should. It came down to just that - I wasn't dressing properly. I had to make the decision - was I going to assert my ego and dress the way I wanted to and have it steadily drain my effort from my professional life, or was I going to appear to conform better? I decided I would make an effort to appear to conform properly. The moment I did, I got much better service. And now, as an old colorful character, I get better service than other people.

You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about. An enormous number of scientists feel they must assert their ego and do their thing their way. They have got to be able to do this, that, or the other thing, and they pay a steady price.

pseale• 17 years ago

Takeaways from this article:

* (assumption that primary job of corporate software developer is to develop software)

* Programmers are not soldiers, so military attitudes to management don't apply

* Big Bank management of software developers is poor

* Dress code correlates with command/control type management structure, which is undesirable, so dress code is therefore an indicator of an undesirable job.

* Due to this correlation, you should never accept a job with a dress code.

I don't like these types of op-ed pieces and yet I still read them. Something's wrong with me.

eguanlao2• 17 years ago

I do not think dress codes are "idiotic." I understand why they exist for companies and organisations. I went to an all-boys Catholic school in Sydney, Australia, and we wore navy blazers, ties, and polished shoes. It was about respect and reputation. I get this. I see this everywhere, in every country. I'd rather see well-dressed people than see slobs. I'd rather look at beauty than ugly. I'd rather smell a pleasant scent than an unpleasant odour. Hey, that's just me.

Now, living in the inelegant U.S., I am a programmer who works in companies with no dress codes, but chooses to wear bespoke suits, sport jackets, and the occasional tie and/or hanky in the jacket's breast pocket... because I love clothing, grooming and elegant style. I have always loved these things, ever since I was a kid.

I understand that programming and dressing well is a rare combination, and I get flak for it from the men once in a while, but the women like it. Hmmm... I wonder why. ;-)

donw2• 17 years ago

Do keep in mind that one of the strengths of the U.S. is its overall lack of refinement; culturally, we idolize elegance, but respect scrapiness. More refined cultures tend to smack down imperfections, which is why a lot of start-ups happen outside of the Old World.

I also love suits and bespoke clothing (having a custom-tailored shirt makes such a difference), but I understand why a lot of people don't -- it's expensive, and a chore to deal with all the time.

Speaking of which, I need to get my shirts pressed...

eguanlao2• 17 years ago

Americans do not idolise elegance. The definition of "idolise," according to the Oxford dictionary, is to "revere or love greatly or excessively." We do not see this idolisation of elegance in the way Americans dress and, most importantly, in the way Americans respond to dressing well, dress codes, and well-dressed people.

mmt• 17 years ago

but the women like it. Hmmm... I wonder why. ;-)

Because necktie:shirt::codpiece:pants

edw519• 17 years ago

Seems at odds with this recent post, "The Seven Vices of Highly Creative People"

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=744053

One those vices was dressing well. Who would have thought it.

KirkWylie5• 17 years ago

FWIW, I'd say I dress well, just casually.

HeyLaughingBoy• 17 years ago

This is an excellent point that I'm amazed no one has made. It's entirely possible to dress very well but without wearing a suit/blazer/wool pants, etc. There are tasteful, well tailored, yet casual clothes all over the place.

A slob in a suit is still a slob.

mrfish• 17 years ago

I always dress to the level of the CEO. If he's looking scruffy, I make sure I look a bit better than that. If he's in suites, that's what I wear. Besides I hate to tell you this but looks are what people judge you on and the guy in the suite or even long sleeve shirt is going to have more weight than the t-shirt guy. It's just reality.

radley• 17 years ago

I think the goal is being good enough that nobody can tell you what to wear.

CWuestefeld• 17 years ago

It can't be denied that there is a significant chunk of people for whom more casual dress is important. This might be due to perceived comfort, or perhaps the expense of the fancy dress and its maintenance. Whatever the reason, enforcing a dress code imposes a cost on employees, both financially and in some cases emotionally.

In an age of tight money, I would expect that more firms would find this a way to save on employment expenses. Other things being equal, at the margin they'd be able to attract better talent for equal benefits. Or, conversely, they'd be able to attract equal talent while spending slightly less on benefits.

Thus, allowing casual dress can be a money saver for companies, with no real cost to implementing it.

Several posts in this thread assert that "dressing up" is a matter of respect for one's coworkers. I don't see why this is so. Certainly, observing hygiene and grooming habits so as not to be offensive fits into this framework. And certain ritualized situations (weddings, funerals, proms) demand it. But I fail to see how dress fits into the more general case.

Indeed, it seems to me that in what we like to think is a diverse, open-minded, tolerant society, that the real act of respect would be to look deeper at a person than just clothes. It's in the mind of the viewer, not the wearer.

mickt• 17 years ago

There's dress codes, and there's dress codes. I think most institutions should have some form of dress code. For example: Do I really have to look at someone's hairy legs or toes or arse when they sit to close to me in a meeting? Do I have to listen to the flip-flops someone is wearing as they walk past my office 20 times in 10 minutes? Do I really need cleavage distracting me all day?

So, maybe some minimal dress code makes sense and can prevent embarassing situations or situations where other's are made uncomfortable by someone else's clothes (or lack of them).

But, having to wear a suit & tie everyday, or khakis & shirt/polo shirt, no thanks.

Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

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