We are all in this together

http://www.craiglockwood.co.uk/blog/we-are-all-in-this-together

by craiglockwood • 12 years ago

41 53 12 years ago

craiglockwood.co.uk

noir_lord5• 12 years ago

I thought the idea sounded vaguely familiar then I realised where from.

It's the starting point of something that could look a lot like the medieval guild system (something that I've often thought might work pretty well for programmers).

dabrowski• 12 years ago

(something that I've often thought might work pretty well for programmers)

As long as it's voluntary of course.

ZeroGravitas• 12 years ago

I'm not a history expert, but I think non-voluntary guild might be an oxymoron, and that stopping non-guild members from practicing the craft was part of what a guild did.

noir_lord5• 12 years ago

Oh absolutely.

One of the reasons why calling it a Guild rather than a Union is that Union has a lot of negative connotations in a lot of countries (here in the UK for example the Unions have a bad reputation for been difficult to work with and older people remember their role in the late 70's).

Also Union has connotations of "Union Shop" which is definitely something that a lot of people regard as negative.

---

I'm thinking more of an organisation that exists to protect programmers, represent our interests publicly, has internal standards and recommendations as par for the course, I doubt the old master/apprentice relationship would translate or for that matter the journeymen systems.

Here in the UK we have the British Computer Society which (theoretically) does something similar but in practice I'm not really sure that they actually do (and as an aside the two people I did know who had paid to join I wouldn't have employed to sweep up).

I'm not sure how well it would work out though since it strikes me as something with a high degree of cat herding built in :).

Xophmeister• 12 years ago

A coder's guild has certainly crossed my mind, in the past, rather than a union. However, to a certain extent, we already have these in non-official forms, facilitated by the web. Groups of websites (e.g., HN, r/programming and StackOverflow) have core users and, although transient and unwritten, that's effectively the same deal; just a modern, open reimplementation.

mattgreenrocks4• 12 years ago

But it's not at all the same. Discussion is chaotic and unstructured, there's very little collective action, and it's not a community, it's just a bunch of people congregating in the same place.

malka• 12 years ago

we have something similar to the guild system in France : the 'Compagnons du Tour de France'[0]. It is for artisans such as bakers, builders, etc).

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France

mitchtbaum3• 12 years ago

This is an area where Drupal's community shines, eg (0) & (1).

A number of its users and associated "shops" have worked very hard to outline, start, and work on a suite of enabling software for this idea.

OP et al, if you are interested in pursuing this, I humbly suggest you reach out to those people.

Drupal's roots are in __social__ software, because it has long been unique in its multi-user capabilities; thus it drew people who were apt to work together.

[0] http://aaronwinborn.com/blogs/aaron/bylaws-open-drupal-guild... [1] https://groups.drupal.org/guilds

noir_lord5• 12 years ago

I can attest to the goodwill of the Drupal community circa 2010 my employer at the time was using Drupal for everything and the community where fantastic.

I'm not a big Drupal fan (as a product I find it had a lot of downsides though I've read that 7 and 8 have fixed many of those).

Joeboy4• 12 years ago

I think sending a card or flowers, and providing financial assistance, are two very different kettles of fish.

If you want to do the former, just go ahead and do so. If they're sent personally it will mean more than if they've come from an organisation whose remit is to send cards and flowers.

If you want to provide meaningful financial assistance, IMO that's a good and noble socialist goal, but involves a really large amount of work and politics. It would be great if you could make it work though.

doesnt_know• 12 years ago

You are quick to point out how you don't want a union, but what you are describing are pretty much the first steps to creating a union. Most are born out of the desire to provide financial and emotional support to those within your industry.

That's not to say that they are always all sunshine and lollipops, but I guess it's too difficult for some people to accept that unions can actually also be a positive thing too.

Joeboy4• 12 years ago

I guess the bit of a union that's not wanted is the collective bargaining bit, which probably seems unappealing or pointless while web developers are generally in demand.

michaelochurch5• 12 years ago

I guess the bit of a union that's not wanted is the collective bargaining bit, which probably seems unappealing or pointless while web developers are generally in demand.

Sorry, but collective bargaining is a real need, even if wages are high.

As programmers, we should have:

    * readily available legal support when faced with non-paying clients.
    * recourse against clients and employers who use reputation threats to justify 
      nonpayment or bad behavior (i.e. "if you don't accept our unfunded scope creep, 
      we'll call other clients.")
    * (for employees) representation when in trouble with management. The right to 
      have a representative *in the room* (mostly, because if you negotiate on your
      own behalf, you're at risk of getting emotional and saying something
      stupid) when dealing with management or HR.
    * defense against negative references and back-channel reference checks in 
      general. 
    * transparency in compensation.
    * negotiation of terms that are embarrassing for an individual to
      formally address, such as severance, health accommodations
      and workplace privacy.

These are things that "collective bargaining" can get. Hollywood actors have a union, even though they're clearly in high demand. In a celebrity economy, you need unions and agents just to deal with the reputation-management issues that quickly become a full-time job in their own right (and that are typically ill-handled by creative specialists like actors or computer programmers). As white-collar employment becomes increasingly reputation-driven, we need this infrastructure yesterday.

Let's say that you find out that an ex-boss from 4 years ago is bad-mouthing you and costing you gigs. If you hire a nasty fucker like me, I can make him shut the fuck up. I'd find a plausible health problem, either one you have and don't mind sharing, or one that would work. Then I'd ask you to communicate to him that you had disclosed that health problem during your employment, his error if he forgot, and that negative communication about you or your performance will be judged discriminatory, so it's best not to say anything at all. Then I'd call that reference for you, about a month later, getting everything on tape and if he was still giving you problems, I'd refer you to a lawyer (but, unlike a union, I can't afford to pay for that). Chances are, you wouldn't know how to handle that. Most people don't. A competent union will.

mattgreenrocks4• 12 years ago

while web developers are generally in demand

Do you think it's always going to be like this? I see this sentiment everywhere on HN: "everything's going well, therefore it's always going to be like this!"

I'm not saying it's falling apart, but do you think business-owners like paying developers as much as they do?

incision• 12 years ago

"That's not to say that they are always all sunshine and lollipops, but I guess it's too difficult for some people to accept that unions can actually also be a positive thing too."

Absolutely.

Whenever I see an anti-union sentiment from people in tech I have to wonder how many have actually participated in one versus second-hand impressions drawn from stories about autoworkers or dealings with carrier technicians?

I've been a due-paying union member and even dabbled as a shop steward. I've also been a contractor and employee for public and private sector.

I can draw on my time in the union (and out, for that matter) to match stories of sickening apathy and mediocrity with anyone, but I've also witnessed the good that can come of it.

The key is balance and bad things happen whenever the scale tips too far in either direction. As I said here the other day [0], the rank and file of tech seem largely content with allowing that balance to continue slip.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494204

chrisdevereux• 12 years ago

OT, but I'm now concerned that David Cameron might have stolen his 2010 election slogan ("We're all in this together") from High School Musical.

Joeboy4• 12 years ago

More likely from the film "Brazil". Where interestingly it is used both by the dystopian government and by Robert de Niro's renegade heating engineer.

cema• 12 years ago

But de Niro's character is using it mockingly. Which, I think, is the proper usage of slogans in general.

EnderMB• 12 years ago

I'm kinda ashamed to admit that I don't really know a lot about what a union does for its workers, since outside of the odd retail job when I was a teenager I've always worked as a developer, and I've never known anyone in an agency or startup setting that has been a part of a union. In some professions and industries, everyone is in a union without question.

Why does there seem to be no such thing as a Software Developers union in the UK, and why are so many people against having a union for those that work on the web?

craiglockwood2• 12 years ago

I think people may be a little worried that a union may be the first step towards regulating an industry.

ryandvm• 12 years ago

I think the bigger issue is that many see unions as institutionalized mediocrity.

I've been in union factories where guys literally sleep at their machines after they've hit their quota. I've watched inferior employees linger at jobs for years simply because making a case for firing them is more trouble than it's worth.

People in our industry tend to be self-reliant autodidacts. I suspect this is because the information technology landscape changes so rapidly that the traits are required to be successful. A lot of us therefore appreciate the meritocracy of tech. We like the fact that better skills mean higher pay, regardless of seniority. The last thing we want is to have "tenured" engineers that don't contribute and can't be fired.

oneeyedpigeon2• 12 years ago

What are the downsides of regulation? Who would impose that regulation?

adwf• 12 years ago

Unions are very political in the UK don't forget. They have direct, open ties to the Labour party (eg. funding, getting to pick candidates, etc). This may not bother someone who is already a Labour voter, but if you were a Conservative/Lib Dem/Other, you might be very upset that your membership of the union is directly aiding a party that you oppose. Even if the other benefits of unions are actually quite good for you.

It's sad that the 70's/80's miners strikes and such have divided the country in this way. It was before my time, but looking at the history, I look at the behaviour of certain unions from back then and agree with why they had to be reined in (even if I don't necessarily agree with the how). But on the other hand, it's turned the political landscape into a false dichotomy of Pro-union/Anti-union, whereas really it's a mixed bag depending on which union you are talking about.

I'd love to be pro-IT union whilst also anti-RMT (eg. London Underground...), but it's not possible in the current political climate.

mitchtbaum3• 12 years ago

What comes to mind for me of a community that helps its fellow members is a Church, Synagogue, Temple, Mosque, Ashram, Wat, etc.

These styles of community have purposefully enabled collaboration for thousands of years, EDIT: and lifted their members up along the way.

I think what they have in common is that their members share a common vision for the future of Humanity, trust each other to help fulfill it, and regularly meet face to face.

A possible vision that could unite web workers today is Engelbart's revelation of the need for tools to solve complex problems.

mattgreenrocks4• 12 years ago

These often serve as 'third places' and are a valuable tool for socialization that Western society has nixed in favor of cheap substitutes like Facebook and Reddit.

It's not a community unless there's also accountability; which entails clear standards of behavior and being held to them. In a professional context, this would be a minimum bar of skills, along with resources for continuing your training.

bigpool• 12 years ago

I saw this a while ago, it sounds like what you're talking about. It is for Bike Messengers who are injured on the job. http://www.bicyclemessenger.org/

mccolin• 12 years ago

Union groups for freelancers and independent workers do exist, with a focus on providing things like insurance coverage and other benefits many indies forgo or have to overpay for at group rates. Freelancers' Union is a good example: https://www.freelancersunion.org/

alexarno• 12 years ago

For anyone working in the creative industries in the UK there is http://nabs.org.uk/ They offer exactly this kind of support. From grants, to advice and help, they are a body supported mostly by the big agencies AFAIK that has been around for over 100 years. They even run a nursing home for retired media workers!

chrisjlee84• 12 years ago

Looks down now. Google cache link here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

amy_dev• 12 years ago

What about something like this http://www.patreon.com/ except with the focus you describe in your blog post?

kostandin• 12 years ago

I'm struggling with the same problems for couple of years now. And not a few people around me have the same problem. That's why I started a project called Togetherise (http://www.togetherise.com) couple of months ago. The main idea is to bring people together when fulfilling some work/idea/project or just to help each other. Portal will offer both knowledge and tools. It is in a development phase right now. I believe it will fill the gap we're all talking about. It is not meant to be used only by developers or designer. It targets all project and people that need help or can offer help through mentoring or coaching. A good team of professionals is already behind this project, so I hope we'll enter beta phase by the end of spring.

We are all in this together

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