Ask HN: Any good investments for those saving a substantial portion of income?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7500896

by ctb_mg • 12 years ago

45 77 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Dear HN,

I am in my mid-20s and I'm banking over 50% of my pay each month. This adds up to about $50k in savings at the moment. I'm maxed up to match on 401k.

The poor interest rates in checking and savings just aren't cutting it for me.

I don't want to risk too much, but how can I better invest this money?

For me particularly -- my goals are a nice car (60k), retirement, and I'd like to be prepared to purchase a home (130k in my area), although I am not immediately interested in home ownership yet...

bybjorn• 12 years ago

although I am not immediately interested in home ownership yet...

You should be, as this is one of the best investments you can make. At least in my part of the world :-)

elharo2• 12 years ago

Depends on where you are, the cost of renting vs. owning, and whether you plan to move. If you expect to be moving in the next 5 years or so (more likely in your 20s than your 40s) then home ownership usually doesn't make sense.

Real estate is also a lot less liquid than stocks, and that can be a concern too.

elefont2• 12 years ago

Past performance does not guarantee future results - That is true for all investment types, including home ownership.

Home ownership does have very advantageous tax consequences in the US compared to other instruments - e.g.: deductible interest, tax breaks on capital gains.

But it also depends on your stage of life. If there is a good chance you'll just randomly move to a different city or country in the next few years, then i would not recommend buying a home.

EliRivers2• 12 years ago

Which part of the world are you in? If I had to design a truly terrible investment, I'd end up with something that looked an awful lot like housing.

bluedevil2k7• 12 years ago

In the US I wouldn't call a home a terrible investment. It's not a great one either. The pluses are - tax privileges and the old mantra "you have to live somewhere", but the minuses are property taxes, lack of liquidity, and transaction costs. The problem when evaluating a house as an investment is that there are hundreds of markets, so no rule is good. Washington DC or San Francisco is a far different market than Austin or Dayton, OH.

aestra4• 12 years ago

That's what everyone in America was saying in 2006. Now there are millions underwater in their mortgages. Best investment indeed.

The demographics of the area you buy a house in can change dramatically which affect your house's price, even if the housing market is doing great as a whole.

There are tax advantages, however.

It also depends on the rental market in your area if you'd save more owning or renting. Owning also brings on additional stress with maintenance and repairs.

"I went to the Home Depot the other day, which was unnecessary... I need to go to the Apartment Depot, which is just a big warehouse with people standing around saying "hey, we ain't gotta fix shit!"" - Mitch Hedberg

DanielStraight• 12 years ago

If you are new to investing, I highly recommend watching these videos:

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Video:Bogleheads%C2%AE_invest...

They aren't selling anything, its just a series of simple videos explaining the basics of buying index funds and why you would want to do that.

elharo2• 12 years ago

This is easy. You want a low cost index fund. Vanguard has a number of good ones. The Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund is probably the best bet. 0.05% expense ratio for admiral shares, a bit more for investor shares. They're a few others that only cover the S&P 500, or include some bonds, or have more international exposure but at your age and savings level it's not worth agonizing over the differences. Just go with the broadest, lowest cost stock fund you can find.

cik• 12 years ago

There are some things you can do, while you're searching - full disclosure of course, I do all these things.

First off, get a high interest savings account (or several) from your bank(s). In Canada, ING Direct does decent things (though there are better). At the very least, while you're figuring out what to do with your money, have it make more interest for you.

Secondly, look at preferred shares. They're less volatile than shares in their parent company, and they pay higher dividends. The obvious drawback being the rate of return over the long term is significantly lower than the indices themselves. Banks, at least in Canada are a great example of this, though the same is true of insurance, and power companies.

All investments bring risk, there's no such thing as a guaranteed return. And of course, investments in preferred shares are a risk, like any other stock. That being the case, they're a risk I can accept.

aestra4• 12 years ago

First off, get a high interest savings account (or several) from your bank(s)

Online savings accounts give a higher interest rate than any B&M bank out there, not that the interest rates are actually high. Compare here: http://www.nerdwallet.com/rates

mcot2• 12 years ago

Open a brokerage account and invest in index funds. That requires the least amount of effort and is shown to provide solid gains over time.

You may also want to accelerate your home purchase plans. This is also an excellent way to use spare cash and you will get a nice tax benefit.

60,000 on a car is just like lighting money on fire, but you probably already knew that. Try to get as close to 0% interest as you can and don't pay it off with the spare cash. The money is better off earning 5% in the stock market and paying a 1.9% car loan (if you can get it).

Tycho• 12 years ago

Something like this maybe? Peer-to-peer lending (with risk-pooling) that cuts out the spread taken by banks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopa

bluedevil2k7• 12 years ago

I tried Prosper a few years ago, put in a few thousand dollars, spread it over 50 loans, and saw about a 4.5% return when factoring in IRR. I think I've read the returns from others are about the same.

rhgraysonii• 12 years ago

Medium to high risk vanguard funds have done very well for me and since they are index based it is much lower risk than just day trading. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-...

seivan3• 12 years ago

Do you pay a fee for them?

hibikir• 12 years ago

Vanguard fees are about as low as they get in the business. They are not one of those companies that sell an easy, computer managed fund, and then charge you 4 times the market rate in fees for it.

The sleaziest I have seen was 401k providers that actually offer funds that have very low fees, and then it's the provider itself that tacks on their own management fees that are many times the size of those of the index fund. Yikes.

bluedevil2k7• 12 years ago

All the recommendations for low cost mutual funds are good, but I recently found Motif Investing (http://motifinvesting.com) - it's a really interesting way of investing in stocks, based on very specific sectors. For example, "cloud computing" or "beer". These types of investments would be difficult to do cheaply with any current mutual find or ETF. It's not something to put all your money into, but it's an alternative and possibly interesting way to invest (I am not affiliated with them in any way).

I would also offer a recommendation against an expensive car. Take it from someone who bought a really nice sports car - the novelty wears off relatively fast, and after that, you're just left paying hefty maintenance fees. Remember a car is to take you from point A to point B.

coldpie3• 12 years ago

Take it from someone who bought a really nice sports car - the novelty wears off relatively fast, and after that, you're just left paying hefty maintenance fees. Remember a car is to take you from point A to point B.

Sports cars are for motorsports. Take her to the track! I'm not exaggerating when I say track days are the most fun I've had in my life.

japhyr• 12 years ago

A nice middle ground might be a motorcycle. I had a 600 sportbike for a few years, and it was funny riding an $8k machine (at the time) that could outperform most sports cars on anything other than a straight-line top speed test.

But you only want a motorcycle if you have good restraint. Sportbikes are so capable, it is easy to maim or kill yourself if you don't know how to hold back. They are just really capable bikes in the low rpms, and then they are high-end racing machines in the high rpms.

I got my motorcycle in my late 20's, after spending a lot of my life riding a bicycle. I don't think it would have been good for me to have a motorcycle in my late teens/ early twenties.

edw519• 12 years ago

I'm maxed up to match on 401k.

Max it beyond match.

At current returns and tax rates, investing pre-tax dollars will probably get you more bang for your buck that almost anything else.

seivan3• 12 years ago

In Sweden these kinds of schemes just pushes up the tax to the future once you take the money out.

And in Sweden pensioners are the hardest tax - making this a horrible deal.

rg812• 12 years ago

Interesting. Most companies nowadays offer a "Roth" option for 401(k) which takes contributions with after tax dollars so when you are ready to get your money back out at 59.5, all of the growth is tax free. You only have to pay taxes on what your employer matches.

aestra4• 12 years ago

In the US, your capital gains grow tax free, making it an awesome deal. You only pay when you take the money out.

We also have Roth IRAs which are tax free when you take it out. You pay tax when you put the money in.

I would suggest the OP creates an (Roth?) IRA and maxes that out too.

rg812• 12 years ago

Agreed, you can put up to $17,500 in your 401(k) for 2014. This is a great way to meet your retirement goal.

fluffyllemon• 12 years ago

I would suggest checking out index funds from Vanguard (or Fidelity or Schwab).

Also, you may want to post this to: http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/

They're a very reasonable and helpful community.

ktavera2• 12 years ago

AA+ rated municipal bonds can have great rates of return, low risk and usually the capital gains are tax-exempt. You can purchase bonds through online brokers (I use TD Ameritrade). There of course are other bonds; corporate, treasury and CD's you can set up in bond ladders to generate income and reinvest after maturity into another bond but those are generally subject to standard tax rates.

bluedevil2k7• 12 years ago

I would caution against bonds, especially US Mutual bonds, right now. It's a common belief (which of course, could be wrong), that interest rates have to rise in the next few years, which would greatly decrease the price of these bonds, resulting in losses. Also, many munis (and therefore their bonds) have outstanding debts through pensions or overspending that makes repayment dicey at best. Even the AA+ rated ones - don't forget, S&P rated all the mortgage bonds at AA+ as well, and look how those turned out.

refurb5• 12 years ago

You are correct that bond values will fall if interest rates rise, but bond prices are inversely correlated with stock prices, so they are a great way to diversify risk and maximize return.

ktavera2• 12 years ago

I don't think you can compare MBS ratings with municipal bond ratings. Mortgage backed securities were a derivative of a pool of bundled bad loans, meaning the underlying asset was toxic.

Municipal bonds are not really derivatives, there is no underlying asset that backs it except for the repayment history from the borrowing entity. If I buy a muni bond slated for an affluent county in New Hampshire to build a new high school then my risk is considerably lower than buying a security where you are dependent on a group of individuals with unknown repayment ability actually completing the terms of their loan (MBS). They are completely different animals

As far as municipal defaults, sure it happens. But very infrequently. Even with piling up liabilities municipal entities generally are able to pay on their bonds even if it means issuing more bonds because if they default, all their liquidity dries up.

chiph• 12 years ago

Look into an Health Savings Account (HSA). Unlike a Flexible Savings Account, what you deposit can stay in there past a year and lets compound interest work for you. When you reach retirement age, you'll have a nice fund to pay for medical expenses that medicare won't pay for.

Caveat: Only suitable if you don't have any ongoing expensive medical costs (diabetes, children, etc).

mhb• 12 years ago

Permanent Portfolio forum:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/permanent-portfolio-dis...

aymeric• 12 years ago

Has anyone tried http://wealthfront.com or heard anything about it?

smartician• 12 years ago

I read this article and the comments, and was appalled that the Executive Chairman of a wealth management company doesn't seem to know the difference between marginal and effective tax rate:

https://blog.wealthfront.com/college-vs-retirement-savings-s...

I'd stay away.

refurb5• 12 years ago

Wow! I had seen that article a while back, but never read then comments. The marginal vs. effective tax rate thing is something he should know.

Also, he seems to like to extrapolate trends that include the cost of tuition being $500K in 20 years. Sure if you straight line the recent growth, but is that really likely?

jafaku2• 12 years ago

I'm a little surprised no one suggested Bitcoin.

gebe• 12 years ago

He asked for (relatively) low risk alternatives though.

jafaku2• 12 years ago

Invest little money then. That could still become a significant retirement fund for him after a few years.

That said, I think Bitcoin is low risk if you secure your coins properly. I don't think there is much risk of the price going down to zero.

seivan3• 12 years ago

Cheap/Free Index Funds

refurb5• 12 years ago

Do some reading: Intelligent Asset Allocator by William Bernstein[1]

The book is actually a quick read even if you're not a math whiz (which I'll assume you are). It goes through a review of how to allocate your money across a number of investments and explain why it makes sense not only from a theoretical perspective but also based on historical returns in the stock market.

You can also pick up other books by William Bernstein that cover the same thing in different degrees of detail.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/The-Intelligent-Asset-Allocator-Portfo...

meric5• 12 years ago

Put a portion in cash. At some point the market will have another downturn. The 1987 stock market crash occurred 7 years after the 1980's recession. The mini-bear market in 1994 happened 7 years after the 1987 stock market crash. The dotcom bust occurred 7 years after the 1994 mini-bear market. The GFC occurred 7 years after the dotcom bust and it is currently the 6th year since the GFC.

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...

Does it look like a good time to put all your money into a S&P500 index fund?

bluedevil2k7• 12 years ago

That's the problem, you can never tell when it's a good time to invest or a bad time. You think people thought it was a good time to invest in March 2009, when the Dow was at 6500? Many people pulled all their money out, thinking the drop would continue. Those who bought were happy. There's an equally likely chance the market will go up 10% in the next year as down 10%. And, there's definitely no pattern to the market.

meric5• 12 years ago

I suppose you're more of a theory type than I am.

For the record, I invested every dollar I had but $100 into the market between March and May 2009, though it was not much (several thousand) as I was but a humble student. I also bought TSLA at $28 and SCTY at $12, and I still hold both of them.

conroe64• 12 years ago

The 1994 mini-bear market? You're shoehorning the data a little to match your theory, don't you think?

meric5• 12 years ago

Actually, no. The S&P 500 was 20% higher in Jan 1994 than in Jun 1994.

I'm not saying it has to be around 7 years, I'm just saying it's generally not a good idea to start investing all your money into the stock market when it's at or near all time highs.

There's even an urban dictionary word for it. "BTFATH" - Buy the fucking all time high. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BTFATH

ct• 12 years ago

Look into selling covered calls or vertical spreads for part of your portfolio as recurring monthly revenue.

mrfusion• 12 years ago

I'd be interested in learning more. Can you explain it, or point us to some reading material?

emacdona2• 12 years ago

Everything you said makes me think you are heading in the right direction except for the 60k car :-) Spend 30k on a lightly used car if you want "nice".

It sounds like you have three different goals, and they break down neatly into: 1) short term: car 2) medium term: house 3) long term: retirement

First: If you can afford to (and it sounds like you can), max your 401k. Your 401k is a vehicle that allows you to "borrow" money from the government and earn interest on it (by being able to postpone taxes). Personally, I invest 100% of my 401k in an S&P 500 index. I have Fidelity, so my fund is Spartan 500 Investor Class (FUSVX). Use whatever S&P 500 index is available to you, though. If you still have money left, put it into a Roth IRA. Same deal: index fund. That covers your long term goal.

Now, for the house. I'm not sure what to say here. Most of my personal savings is also in the Spartan 500. If you've got a sliding window of 5 years to buy a house, I'd recommend the same. Convert to something more stable (bonds?) when you've made some money... then hold on to it while you're waiting to buy a house. However, consider buying one right now with little money down. Prices are stabilizing and interest rates are still historically low.

Finally, short term. You're young, so you probably won't listen (and honestly, that's okay -- I'm not picking on you): don't buy a 60k car. Spend 30k on a used Audi or BMW if that's your thing. Personally, I would recommend spending 23k on a used Honda. You will be amazed (maybe) at what 23k gets you for a used Honda. Same deal as the house, though. Buy it now, with little money down. Interest rates are really low.

Good luck. Mid 20's and already talking about saving half of your pay check. You'll be fine. Just max that 401k. And please don't get a 60k car :-)

coldpie3• 12 years ago

Great advice here. Definitely get into an index, or a handful of mutual funds. Your bank savings account is losing you money. I'm 100% into mutual funds and honestly I should just switch over to the index you're using, emacdona (I'm also at Fidelity). Everything I've read suggests indexes do at least as well as funds, and it's truly "set it and forget it".

About the car: I agree that 60k is ridiculous, but don't get the Honda. Get a car you like. Or do get the (used) Honda, and also a car you like. I bought a 2007 Z4 Coupe for less than 24k back in 2011. Taking her up to the track is literally the most fun I've had in my life, and it's emerging into a full hobby as I'm trying to get into ChumpCar this year. Motorsports is a great hobby. I wrote a short article about it a year ago:

http://www.smokingonabike.com/2013/03/27/programmer-looking-...

Life is about fun. If you have financial security in the bag, enjoy it while you've got it.

emacdona2• 12 years ago

coldpie, you are absolutely right: if cars are a hobby, get one you will enjoy driving. And like you alluded to, there are plenty of options well under 60k.

However, if all you're looking for is to get from point A to point B with a sunroof, heated seats, and low mileage... you can do all that for under 25k in a Honda that will last you over ten years. If you want a little more zip, spring for the V6 ;-)

Gobitron• 12 years ago

Yeah, agreed on the car thing. Last year I bought a used '09 Accord V6 fully loaded for $17.5k with great maintenance records and low miles. My other car is an '08 Outback, which I bought in '09 for $18k and it had extremely low miles.

You DO NOT need to spend over $20k to get a great, reliable used car. I am guessing your standards for fun to drive might be different than mine, but an Accord V6 has plenty of power and you just never have to worry about maintenance.

tomp• 12 years ago

http://wallstreetplayboys.com/sp-500-surpasses-1700-the-worl...

TL;DR: invest in a low-fee, broad stock-market index (e.g. S&P) every month; over a long time horizon, it should perform well, even if the market doesn't go up (example in article: June 2007 until March 2013 - 5% annualized return).

vishnugupta• 12 years ago

While I will not be able to advice you about the choice of investment owing to my nationality, I highly recommend reading following books. Cover-to-cover if you can.

1. The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham. 2. Irrational Exuberance by Robert J. Shiller. 3. Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman.

OK, here's advice anyway :). Please, please do diversify your investments across different classes of products ; Equity, Debt, assets such as Gold or land and so on.

The proportion may vary according to your risk appetite, but do diversify.

bavcyc• 12 years ago

Read Graham's Intelligent Investor, there are also books which provide examples or slight alternatives to Graham's approach. Also sites similar to Mr. Money Mustache may provide guidance that is helpful to you (or not).

Regarding the home purchase, consider loaning yourself the money from the 401k rather than paying someone else interest.

leftcoaster• 12 years ago

Take this question to the bogleheads forum.

wes-exp• 12 years ago

https://www.futureadvisor.com

stygiansonic• 12 years ago

Firstly, I'd recommend this book: http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bogleheads'_Guide_To_Investin...

It's easy to grasp and straightforward. Some basic ideas from the book:

1) What is your timeline? You seem to have multiple goals/timelines (car, retirement, home) and you need to define each clearly so that you can save for them in the proper manner. Needing money in 5-10 years for a house going to present a different goal than needing it in 30+ years for retirement. Generally, the shorter the time-frame, the less-risky the investment. If you need it in <=5 years, I would stay away from equity, but that is me. Once you know your goals and timeline you can figure out what kind of expected return you want to target.

2) Risk tolerance: You touched on this, but again, you need to clearly define what you mean by "I don't want to risk too much". How affected would you be if your investments were down 30% in one year? Would you hold or panic and sell to avoid further losses? Answering this question is a lot easier to do when you haven't lived through a huge market drop. (People tend to overestimate their tolerance for risk)

3) What is your financial situation? I assume no debt if you're saving 50% of your pay each month, but if you do have any debt, you're probably better paying that off before choosing to invest. Talking a financial planner (who isn't trying to sell you product/services from his/her institution) is a good way to figure out a plan in this respect. I would also ensure you have a decent emergency fund - depending on your situation, 6 months is usually enough.

4) Other assets: If you have a decent 401k match (as you indicated) this gives you a little more flexibility since you already are saving decently for retirement.

5) Taxes: This matters a lot and tax rates for different investments can vary quite a bit. I'm not familiar with US tax code so again, this is something you should talk to a financial planner or accountant to understand.

Having said all of that, I'm personally pursuing a passive, asset-allocation plan. I'm mostly invested in Vanguard Index ETFs with a percentage allocation of bonds, US equity, Canadian Equity (I live in Canada) and International Equity that I feel is comfortable for me. I chose this mainly because of the low-cost/low-MER (Vanguard ETFs have even lower MER in the US) and went passive because I don't like to have constantly make adjustments to my portfolio.

Most of my assets are invested for long-term capital growth, but I have separate accounts for an emergency fund and saving for a real estate purchase where preservation of principal is my concern. (high interest savings account)

refurb5• 12 years ago

The Boglehead wiki has some great references on these topics: http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

bushido• 12 years ago

First things first: we don't have enough information to make suggestions as investing is a lot more about risk management than returns. There have been a few suggestions that could be great in other circumstances, but without knowing the OPs risk thresholds are most likely ill-advised.

1. the OP states that "I don't want to risk too much"

2. risk is a very subjective/relative concept - the only thing the OP has stated that risk can be related to is "checking and savings just aren't cutting it"

3. based on that alone the safest assumption is that the OP's risk capacity is relative to dismal returns from savings and checking returns - that barely keeps up with inflation

---------------

To OP:

1. Nothing wrong with a lower risk capacity - maybe you need to work your way to managing higher risk

2. For short term goals (< 3yrs)- choose very safe investments as you cannot afford fluctuations

3. For long term goals and retirement - taxation is just as or more important than returns - interest income, capital gains and qualified dividends are taxed differently. With that in mind, looks like most if not all your current savings and investments are 100% taxable.

4. There are a number of ways to deal with taxation, best to find a good investment adviser who has a good understanding of risk management, taxation etc.

5. If you want to self manage - and don't know your tolerance - look into doing a funnel - i.e. keep 10% in highly liquid investments (Cash, Money Market etc), 20% in government/high quality corporate bonds(short-medium term), 70% in investments with additional risk (ex: 30% in managed high yield bonds, 40% in equity index funds -- if you're risk tolerance changes you could increase your equity). [change ratios to match your needs, risk etc. note: try and maintain at least 3 levels]

6. Research re-balancing strategies.

7. Read some books:

a. The richest man in Babylon(fiction) - read first, no particular order after this

b. The Ivy Portfolio

c. The intelligent asset allocator

d. The permanent portfolio

e. The Investor's Manifesto: Preparing for Prosperity, Armageddon, and Everything in Between

f. Value Averaging

PeterWhittaker• 12 years ago

A) Don't take advice from random strangers, especially those living in echo chambers.

B) Read, read, read, read, read.

C) After B, decide on your own - you are likely as smart or smarter than any financial adviser, you need to learn what's out there.

D) Some things that work for me: i) Letting my wife manage my portfolio, for the most part, she is generally more distant in her judgements; ii) stocks paying decent dividends with a history of doing so, in a DRIP; iii) reading the news, looking for things that might cause bumps in depressed stocks (made good money on Yahoo when Mayer took over); iv) doing "iii" with no more than 5-10% of my portfolio.

fsk• 12 years ago

Rule #1 - an emergency fund of 6-12 months living expenses, in checking or money market. (Putting more than this in cash is a bad idea, because the interest you earn doesn't keep pace with inflation.)

Long-term savings should be in stocks (or gold or silver).

Lazy allocation #1: 100% in S&P 500 index fund.

Lazy allocation #2: 50% in S&P 500 index fund, 50% in gold/silver ETFs (like GLD, SLV, PHYS, PSLV).

Advanced #1: Pick individual stocks in addition to index funds.

Advanced #2: In addition to gold and silver ETFs, also take physical delivery. (a hedge against the possibility the the PM ETFs will default, see MF Global)

Note: The stock market is a risk, but over a 5+ year time period it should do better than 0% in a checking account.

akg_67• 12 years ago

1. Invest in Yourself.

2. Value experiences over things.

3. Avoid borrowing money as much as possible. Avoid debt.

4. Keep an emergency fund.

5. Invest in low cost Index mutual funds/ETF.

6. Read following books: 6a. Your Money or Your Life: 9 Steps to Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence. 6b. The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy 6c. A Random Walk Down Wall Street: The Time-Tested Strategy for Successful Investing

hughes• 12 years ago

The Couch Potato Investment Strategy[0] is a great place to start. It focuses on total-market strategies that are extremely low in cost and dead simple to set up. You will most likely beat any actively managed mutual fund[1].

[0] http://www.moneysense.ca/invest/couch-potato-portfolio-frequ...

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/sp-indices-versus-active-fund...

jesusmichael• 12 years ago

If you go to a financial advisor... he's going to talk asset allocation and diversity.

I was in the same situation as you. I got some good advice and purchased real estate. I bought a home for myself and and a rental, got another rental 2 years later and 4 more over the next 10 years. 20 years later and I have $2M in equity in property that has never been underwater and a nice annual income stream(60K+) that I don't do much for.

Real estate has its ups and downs but its not as volatile as the stock market and is an asset that can not only generate capital gains but also income.

.02

Ask HN: Any good investments for those saving a substantial portion of income?

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