Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/03/13/have-liberal-arts-degree-will-code/?mod=trending_now_1

by jseliger • 12 years ago

23 58 12 years ago

blogs.wsj.com

The problem with this title is that in the reference, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", the character actually has something that's relevant to his travels.

mathattack• 12 years ago

Maybe they're trying to allude that the liberal arts degree isn't completely worthless?

gruseom• 12 years ago

Programming is writing.

nirnira5• 12 years ago

Programming is to writing what building a machine from basic electronic components to electrically stimulate vocal cords is to speech.

norswap• 12 years ago

Despite the flurry of Stunk&White analogies, I actually found the two activities to be quite distinct. I think in part because language is much more general (you could say "lose") and because programming exhibit concepts that are nowhere to be found in language (even at the "language" level, programming idioms have little to do with actual idioms).

noname1232• 12 years ago

I have a BA in CS from a liberal arts school and I completely agree. Nothing in math or computer science is "discovered," but we're just learning and then writing a long narrative documenting the beauty and truth of the Universe. (Some people just have a stick up their a$$ because they happen to have done time to please someone else in either ivory tower or other powers, to think that what they do is better than shoveling snow).

nirnira5• 12 years ago

I think that's the joke.

oftenwrong• 12 years ago

"Have X, Will Y" pre-dates that novel

http://www.word-detective.com/2013/07/have-gun-will-travel/

dragonwriter9• 12 years ago

The problem with this title is that in the reference, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", the character actually has something that's relevant to his travels.

Surely the reference is to the saying "Have Gun, Will Travel" (to which "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" was also a reference) which was popularly used to mean "I am prepared for anything", which is exactly the theoretical point behind a liberal arts degree (though not specifically a degree with a major in the humanities, though the latter are generally also the former, and the article seems to use them interchangeably; "liberal arts" is orthogonal to the major field of study.)

ZanyProgrammer4• 12 years ago

I find the alternate methods people use to become programmers fascinating (alternate as in "didn't graduate with a CS degree from a 4 year school when 21). I did something different than this article suggested-I used the Post 9/11 GI Bill to take almost every single CS course at my local community college.

mikepilla• 12 years ago

Sounds like you made good use of the GI Bill. But were the classes necessary in helping you land the first programming gig?

ZanyProgrammer4• 12 years ago

I think so. I went to a rather large community college, and was able to get a wide diversity of coursework. Having all that exposure certainly helped, as well as a lot of programming on my own-having a repository of (what are now rather embarrassing to look at!) code samples I worked on in my spare time also helped. Having a paper credential (in this case an AA) also helps a lot.

ForHackernews4• 12 years ago

This is a real pet peeve of mine, but "Liberal Arts" is not synonymous with "Humanities": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal%20arts

College or university curriculum aimed at imparting general knowledge and developing general intellectual capacities, in contrast to a professional, vocational, or technical curriculum. ... In modern colleges and universities, the liberal arts include the study of literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science.

Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art! As are pure mathematics, and natural sciences like physics, chemistry, or biology.

dragonwriter9• 12 years ago

Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art!

Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree (BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.)

Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that is a Liberal Arts degree.

ForHackernews4• 12 years ago

I would argue that in most cases, the BA/BS distinction is a meaningless artifact of what credential your university happens to offer.

For example, MIT only awards BS degrees to undergrads, so you could major in French Studies or history and get a BS: http://mitadmissions.org/discover/majors

In contrast, a school like Amherst only awards BA degrees, so you'd wind up with a BA in physics, chem or computer science: https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/departments

ChuckMcM• 12 years ago

This is true, and as a potential undergrad my leaning was to an "engineering" school, but all three of my daughters ended up at "Small Liberal Arts Colleges", one with a Physics degree, one with a Biology degree, and the third will probably end up with a creative writing/economics degree. So two of them at least, very much 'hard' science and all very employable.

To the article's point though, coding has become a much more important vocational skill than it was. I really do think there should be a fourth skill set in primary school education reading, writing, mathematics, and computer programming.

Wohui• 12 years ago

Upvoting in simultaneous disgust and enlightenment.

Forplax• 12 years ago

Do we really have 10-year-old "ace web programmers" running around?

gamegoblin• 12 years ago

Not 10 year old ace web programmers, but I have a friend who started coding PHP at age 10 and was doing serious freelance work (making as much as any other seasoned PHP dev) in high school.

Definitely not the same, but getting started at 10 and being proficient at 14 isn't unheard of.

ddoolin• 12 years ago

All I know is that you'll never miss them. They always like to point out how young they are when sharing anything.

bsirkia2• 12 years ago

A more accurate title would be "Studied Humanities, Will Code". I have a liberal arts degree from Middlebury College where I studied Computer Science, so it shouldn't be too surprising that I will code (and do code full-time professionally).

laxatives• 12 years ago

Similarly, all the CS grads from Berkeley have BA's with lots of general education breadth requirements (EECS students have BS's).

ZanyProgrammer4• 12 years ago

If I could afford to continue and get a 4 year CS degree, I'd prefer myself to get a BA, or get a CS degree at a non engineering school.

pasbesoin• 12 years ago

OT, but 7 weeks at the Middlebury Summer Languages program let me go from zero French to placing into third year French when I returned to my... um, "full-time" college the following fall. (After fighting them because they initially insisted I couldn't have progressed beyond a second year placement.)

Abilities and performance varied significantly, but the program let you make rapid progress if you were of a mind to.

If I may ask (in part because I consider returning to that area of Vermont), how did you find the Computer Sciences program?

quomopete• 12 years ago

If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts graduate?

Brain plasticity. Next.

nirnira5• 12 years ago

I've never found these "brain plasticity" arguments very compelling. I had no motivation or context for learning when I was young (0-20) and while I might have done well in school tests and read a lot of books, I don't think I really absorbed anything in any depth, or thought in any particularly interesting or challenging ways - I certainly never achieved anything which would have required so much willpower and focus as learning to program modern computers.

And now that I am older (mid-20s) and my brain is supposedly less plastic, but I have motivation, context and determination in abundance, I feel like I am really learning and developing for the first time in my life.

dragonwriter9• 12 years ago

The fact that it is possible for a motivated 25-year-old to be better at learning something than the same person as an unmotivated 10-year-old does not refute the fact that human brain development is such that certain forms of learning are much easier at 10 than at 25.

robgering• 12 years ago

I did this. My undergraduate degrees are in the humanities. I started programming in my late twenties. I also have kids. For anyone in the same spot -- it's not impossible, you'll just have to consistently put in hours to learn, and be open to criticism when you make the inevitable mistakes. That's probably true for most career paths.

nirnira5• 12 years ago

I'm interested to see, as better systems for teaching coding develop, popularity and awareness of its accessibility builds, it begins to go mainstream, and the marketplace becomes more competitive and wages decline, is, will the oldguard agitate for economic protection?

Edit: From the sounds of things, it's going to be very interesting:

Dan Melton, deputy chief technology officer at Granicus, a San Francisco-based startup that puts government data in the cloud, has hired two students with humanities backgrounds from App Academy. He said he looks for those students because they’re able to work better with other programmers and clients and understand the larger meaning of the work.

"We already have a lot of software whiz kids," Melton said. "We like to hire people who are interested in public affairs and civic engagement."

Sounds like it's going to be quite the culture change.

dragonwriter9• 12 years ago

If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts graduate?

Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.)

For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates probably can't either.

Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree -- I might have even been a 10-year-old web programmer, if not necessarily an ace one, if the web existed when I was 10.)

byoung2• 12 years ago

I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree

I have a BA in English, but I've been programming since I was 7, starting with BASIC, then on my TI-82 in junior high, C in high school, Perl, PHP and Javascript in college. I work full time as a software engineer now, and I make a good living doing it.

wernercd• 12 years ago

On the same token, you could build cars your whole life... get a liberal arts degree... then say all LA's can easily become mechanics.

After all, what's easy for you is easy for everyone right?

joesmo• 12 years ago

They can and do. By the droves. Great engineers come not only from liberal arts but from a variety of disciplines. The best engineers I've worked with did not have CS or CE degrees and neither do I. Some of them had nothing but a high school diploma or GED. Formal training is certainly not needed, and in many cases, it's a hamper. Also, the money wasted on such is much better spent elsewhere, especially considering the curriculum and many colleges/universities, one that is hardly up to date and does not prepare students for real world development.

HamSession• 12 years ago

The biggest issue with the article is

"Last March, he enrolled in App Academy, a 12-week web development program with locations in San Francisco and New York, and found a job coding within three weeks of interviewing. In his new position as a web application engineer at Yola, a San Francisco-based website building company, Morrison says he earns considerably more than what he had made doing administrative work."

Same thing was happening before the crash of 2000, people would take a month long course and then get jobs based on that course. I ask everyone what is driving up the valuations, and to look critically into the future. As soon as the companies that have the large valuations (Twitter,Facebook,etc.) start to post negative growth you will see an exodus.

ben_mcmahen• 12 years ago

I wrote a short essay on my experience with transitioning from the humanities to web design and development. In short, I think it can be done... and that there are even certain advantages and unique skills that a liberal arts degree provides... but ultimately it comes down to some innate skills combined with lots of hard work. Here is my full essay for anyone interested: https://medium.com/this-happened-to-me/d609c1770dd4

jaryd• 12 years ago

As an additional data point, I was into systems/programming as a kid and so when I went to college I studied English hoping it would make me a more rounded person.

I currently do sysops professionally.

bitwize2• 12 years ago

Hum majors who take up coding are more than welcome to try,but they should be warned: programming is hard. It's easier than multivariable calculus, but there there ARE right and wrong answers, and you WILL come a point when you'll hit a wall and be frustrated, and you need to have the perseverance to get through those points. If this is to be your career you need to commit to a virtual lifetime of learning and growing.

Also, start with Python. I know some of you think it's neat to jump right in with JavaScript and make cool animations and dynamic web pages, but -- I'm from the future. You should start with Python.

tekalon• 12 years ago

I cam from History to IT. I can agree with this and still struggle with it at times.

bitwize2• 12 years ago

Well, really, the only difference between people like me, who have been doing this for most of our natural lives, and people like you is that we've run into a bunch more walls and now act like it's no big d. But the initial frustration as a n00b can be killer.

georgiecasey• 12 years ago

Friedman says she doesn’t regret majoring in English. She says her communication skills help her explain work to less technical colleagues.

I wouldn't really agree with that, but whatever you need to justify your student debts.

enraged_camel• 12 years ago

You wouldn't really agree with what? That her English degree helps her communicate better, or that English degrees in general help people communicate better?

Oh, wait. You don't have an English degree, do you?

stephenaturner• 12 years ago

Clearly spoken by someone who has no idea about communication at all.

siliconc0w• 12 years ago

Went with a BA in politics since young arrogant me got tired of the CS curriculum (why do I need to learn java? I can already make anything in PHP!) and politics was more interesting (and better demographics honestly).

So I've brushed up on my CS via online courses and enjoy a more educated/enlightened apathy toward modern politics.

Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

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