The Tragedy of Mathematics In Russia

http://www.math.nsc.ru/LBRT/g2/english/ssk/case_e.html

by kamaal • 12 years ago

64 45 12 years ago

math.nsc.ru

stefantalpalaru• 12 years ago

Here's a summary of the events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Luzin#The_Luzin_affair_...

huhtenberg2• 12 years ago

Don't forget that the context was that of the Great Purge of '37.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

They would take random people make up absolutely ludicrous accusations, hand out heavy sentences and send them to labor camps. Just for giggles and shit, basically. That was a dark, rotten time. They fostered the norm of everyone ratting on everyone and, disgustingly, to a degree it worked. The running joke was that after a neighbor dinner party NKVD (KGB's predecessor) always received comprehensive reports on what was discussed, from every guest.

So it wasn't just the mathematics. If someone had an inclination towards unethical and predatory behavior, that was the most fertile time to act on it and a bit too many people actually did. Those were the dark times really.

democracy9• 12 years ago

1. Hitler said that Stalin would never be able to stop Nazi if he still had his "tzar generals" - nickname for those military highranks executed in 37.

2. Kanaris (nazi intelligence director) said after 37 their spy network didn't exist any more in Russia.

While you can't deny that there were innocent cases, one can't deny that many people were sued for a reason, as Stalin knew the war was inevitable and was doing anything to support the state.

Another interesting story is that as a spy you could get a smaller term than for some other crimes, so criminals happily became spies and local authorities happily reported their success to Moscow.

As for "dark rotten times", in the 20's Stalin was talking to English ambassador who asked Stalin if there would be a world war and Stalin replied that there would be a war and it would be much worse as with Germany, Japan would also attack from the east.

All actions of 20-30s and Stalin's decisions should be estimated from the war preparations that started in the early 20s. Young Soviet country didn't have friends and did everything it could to survive. Were Stalin's methods brutal and inhuman? Probably. Would civilization as we know it exist now if Hitler managed to get rich Russian resources? No. So sometimes ends justify means.

Just my point of view based on numerous historical books I read.

lafar65024• 12 years ago

Yeah, millions of people that died in Siberia were there for a reason. They must have been criminals, otherwise good father Stalin wouldn't imprison them. Yeah, of course. But I'm pretty sure Hitler's victory would be a lesser evil for USSR and neighboring countries.

oleganza3• 12 years ago

Lets not forget that while Hitler and Stalin were playing their games, ordinary citizens of Germany and Russia did not vote for any war, hyperinflation, police state (neither imperial, nor soviet), collectivization etc. One regime was pushing people in the poverty, another one was using the faults of the predecessor to justify its own evildoing.

Debating whether Stalin really helped Russia by killing some generals and starving ukrainian farmers to death is pointless. Several high-rank psychopaths in Europe were manipulating people left and right with carrots and sticks. That's the main concern, not any particular tactic used by any one of them to achieve their own goals.

cpleppert• 12 years ago

>As for "dark rotten times", in the 20's Stalin was talking to English ambassador who asked Stalin if there would be a world war and Stalin replied that there would be a war and it would be much worse as with Germany, Japan would also attack from the east.

Your arguing the 'purge' was prescient foresight on the part of stalin who ignored warnings that Hitler was going to attack and kept troops that could have been used against the Germans stationed in Siberia against the Japanese? Stalin didn't know war was coming and said so. The purges led to massive early losses by the Red Army at the hands of incompetent generals.

rwissmann• 12 years ago

1. Hitler has said a lot of things regarding military matters and they weren't always very smart. The opposite argument has also been made by many historians: That removing a lot of the military leadership pre-war weakened the initial Soviet response significantly.

As for the rest of your argument: With the same logic you can justify Nazi Germany's war preparations and concentration camps in the 30s. Stalin was right that the post-WWI architecture of the world and Europe in particular was unsustainable and might well lead to war. That doesn't justify arbitrary executions and mass murder. It also smells like justifications from hindsight.

sampo• 12 years ago

Hitler said that Stalin would never be able to stop Nazi if he still had his "tzar generals"

I think the general consensus among historians is in total opposition to what you write. The the old generals were more competent than the new young communists that replaced them.

huhtenberg2• 12 years ago

Were Stalin's methods brutal and inhuman? Probably.

"Probably"? So there's a chance that they were NOT brutal and humane? Jesus f#cking Christ.

arethuza• 12 years ago

So basically your argument is that because Stalin defeated Hitler then all the horrors of the Stalinist regime were absolved? All the tortures and murders, the camps of the Gulag and the slaves forced to work on pointless projects like the Baltic-White Sea canal - all of that was justified as part of some decade long anti Nazi master plan?

Really?

Edit: In case what I said is perceived as anti-Russian, I'm really am not - I've read a lot of Russian/Soviet history and I am acutely aware of the debt we in the West owe the Soviet people.

However, Stalin - he was a murderous paranoid lunatic.

herokusaki2• 12 years ago

Just my point of view based on numerous historical books I read.

Name three.

jamii2• 12 years ago

So sometimes ends justify means.

Fun fact - according to "The Better Angels of Our Nature" more people died in the Soviet gulags than in the rest of the war combined, Nazi concentration camps included.

So "we killed all these people to stop the Nazis from killing a substantially smaller number of people" doesn't really fly.

jseliger• 12 years ago

Although the Luzin affair is more serious, the institutional problems with Soviety math remained at least up to the '80s; Edward Frenkel's recent book Love and Math: The Heart of a Hidden Reality discusses the anti-Semitism that kept him and other Jews from top schools and positions.

In his case, the opening and then crumbling of the Soviet Union got him out, but the book itself is worth reading.

(I wrote a little about it here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/love-and-math-the-h...).

The Tragedy of Mathematics In Russia

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