Lawsuit: Oracle called $50K 'good money for an Indian'

http://www.itworld.com/it-management/399838/ex-oracle-salesman-claims-complaining-about-wage-discrimination-got-him-fired

by tankenmate • 13 years ago

103 88 13 years ago

itworld.com

sizzle• 13 years ago

would he be coming on a H1b visa?

tlogan• 13 years ago

I'm not a lawyer and I would love the hear opinion about this. Do companies use L-1 visas to workaround H1B requirements?

As far as I understand L-1 visa (which is probably used here) has no prevailing wage requirement. They can even still be on payroll of Oracle in India (or whatever Oracle's entity in India is called).

stickydink• 13 years ago

An L-1 currently requires working continuously for 1 year, for the same company in the original country. Has that always been the case?

otoburb• 13 years ago

From what I can see, it's been (for a while) that you needed to work 3 years for the current company, of which at least 1 of those years must have been in the original country of origin.

diogenescynic• 13 years ago

I'm not a lawyer and I would love the hear opinion about this. Do companies use L-1 visas to workaround H1B requirements

Yes, often they come over under the veil of a 'temporary assignment' so they remain on foreign payroll. They can stay up to three years before having to renew/reapply. I worked for an immigration law firm and I saw wages as low as $15,000/year coming from South Korea to work at Fortune 500s.

southphillyman• 13 years ago

This is a strategy used by Accenture's ATS division. Teams of 100+ engineers deployed in the US, being bused to hotels and given meal vouchers at night, while earning Indian wages.

fleitz2• 13 years ago

Companies use the path of least resistance. (unless they like making life difficult for themselves)

If an L-1 is easier to get they will do that, if a TN is easier they will do that, etc, etc, etc. Immigration is highly particular to an individual case.

noonereally2• 13 years ago

This is not correct. I work on H1b and have tons of friends on L1 visa. When employee is transferred from India to US, they are supposed to get salary based on US County ( that's right, its COUNTY) they will be working in. Before coming to US ( or filing visa) lawyer is supposed to file LCA ( called Labor Condition Application) which mentions prevailing wages for that particular job title. If anyone is getting paid less than what is mentioned as LCA then its blatant violation of law. You can call USCIS/ICE helpline and within 24 hrs action will be taken and most likely employer will be fined severely.

badman_ting• 13 years ago

Labor costs, labor costs, labor costs. (And racism, of course.)

nawitus• 13 years ago

It seems to be nationalism, not racism. The quote refers to the country, not American Indians.

walshemj4• 13 years ago

Nationality is a protected class in the US.

etanazir• 13 years ago

Discrimination based on race and discrimination based on the foreign nationality immigrant status are very different things, no?

dictum2• 13 years ago

Xenophobia is racism's twin sister.

TallGuyShort3• 13 years ago

I don't believe anything in the article indicates this was Xenophobia. It sounds entirely plausible that it wasn't "offer him less because he's brown", but rather "offer him less because he lives in a lower-cost-of-living and lower-average-income country". i.e. this might be akin to saying "that's good money for someone from Alabama". It's not about race, it's about location.

I'm not saying there's a ton of evidence in favor of what I'm saying, I'm just saying it's a possible explanation.

ChuckMcM• 13 years ago

I think this story is missing some key pieces (it seems like it was created by the plaintiff's lawyer). Still if the commentary suggested is true, then Oracle could be in trouble. The technicality that I wonder about is that this guys wasn't "harmed" by being told to pay the foreign worker less, (mental distress complaint aside) and the foreign worker presumably doesn't know this happened and so isn't suing Oracle.

And all of that is conflated by the fact that the person is already hired so it isn't a hiring question, it is a pay question. And at least in the several "managing legally" I've been to, paying people differently doesn't get you into legal trouble like not hiring or firing them does.

That said, at one of the companies where I worked there was a suggestion for engineers to go to India to help train local engineers, and having their salary be the same as their peers would have in India. (as opposed to California salaries) It was controversial to say the least.

Jochim• 13 years ago

I think his argument is that he was fired for trying to prevent Indian employees being discriminated against, which might be considered unfair dismissal. In the UK being fired for exposing wrongdoing within the company counts as unfair dismissal, I don't know if the US has a similar system in place to protect workers in situations like this.

gaius2• 13 years ago

Yes what we have here is an Irish guy, in America, suing on behalf of an Indian, in India, who may not even be aware he's a part of it.

bonemachine4• 13 years ago

No, what we have here is a SV megacorp practicing blatant racism in its hiring (or internal allocation) practices, and then firing the guy who blew the whistle on it.

It's not about the Irish guy, or the Indian guy.

EDIT: for "internal allocation", above.

chetanahuja2• 13 years ago

From the article, there's some suggestion of the plaintiff himself having been discriminated against for his Irish origin... (though no details)

'... "experienced discriminatory and retaliatory conduct based on his national origin and after his complaint of various improper practices, including the company's discriminatory pay practices of employees based on their national origin,...'

cognivore• 13 years ago

Oracle will get kicked in the buffalo packet on the point of "retaliation." Essentially, they fired him because he was questioning them - you can't do that, especially in California which has hugely employee slanted laws. The point of whether the Indian sales hire was being discriminated against is not in the senior salesperson's domain - it would be the Indian's lawsuit to file.

sequoia• 13 years ago

...buffalo packet?

free• 13 years ago

You get what you pay for. The only people joining would be the one's who have no other option. They'll only harm themselves in the long run I think.

gopher14• 13 years ago

Yes, the so-called "shortage" of STEM workers is just an excuse to relax immigration laws in order to pay foreigners less than domestic workers.

johnpmayer• 13 years ago

Well there is certainly scarcity, and I don't think an isolationist approach will help. We need to protect the H1Bs and equivalents coming to our countries; give them better rights, increase their leverage. This will make it harder for employees to drive down their, and by extension our, salaries. This is because foreign and domestic workers are substitute goods from an HR perspective.

gopher14• 13 years ago

I agree with you on the immigrant protections, but not everyone agrees on the scarcity point: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

Redacted.

gopher14• 13 years ago

Yes, I edited for clarification.

unreal37• 13 years ago

This article was basically written by the plantiff's lawyer. Of course it's heavily slanted to one side. Would want to hear the other side.

Even what is written doesn't sound lawsuit worthy. In the end, the company was offering an existing employee a raise to $50K per year and this one unrelated guy thought $60K was a better offer. It's a fine line. I can't see the guy winning his suit based on only $10K difference to an employee that doesn't even know this conversation is happening.

Companies are always trying to pay less than they have to, regardless of race. I've seen countless times employers being happy that a candidate, when asked how much salary they wanted, came back with a low number. Everyone in the hiring process knows the candidate is under-pricing themselves to the market, but lo and behold the offer comes at what they asked for. "More money to get the next candidate"

fleitz2• 13 years ago

Yeah, no kidding, welcome to negotiating, if you're getting what you asked for, you're asking for too little.

chetanahuja2• 13 years ago

I don't think the numbers themselves are the problem. The problem is (if proven) that the hiring manager said those fateful words "...enough for an Indian".

jedmeyers• 13 years ago

Unless the hiring manager wrote this somewhere like an email, I doubt it will be proven at all. Anyway for now it is nothing more than just hearsay.

bonemachine4• 13 years ago

Even what is written doesn't sound lawsuit worthy.

May or may not have been, but sounds like you didn't even read the article, judging from your response.

Hint: It definitely was not about a $10k salary difference.

enscr• 13 years ago

Besides salary difference, getting fired for raising concerns like these are sufficient grounds for a lawsuit.

piyush_soni2• 13 years ago

Company was not offering a "raise to $50K". He was initially working in India, and was to be brought to US - where the cost of living is much higher, and there has to be equal wages for same job regardless of national origin. Have you really read the article?

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but $50k actually is good money for an Indian right?

Pretty sure this is just a way for everyone on HN to vent their outsourcing frustrations under the thin guise of political correctness.

gnu8• 13 years ago

There's no excuse for underpaying employees because of their location or the color of their skin. The proper salary for an oracle employee is probably several million dollars per year, based on their sales, but most of it is stolen by the shareholders and top level executives.

rgbrenner• 13 years ago

The proper salary for an oracle employee is probably several million dollars per year, based on their sales

Oracle only pulls in 300k revenue per employee. Interesting how that makes each one worth 'several million' a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

This is not meant to offend, but your response is essentially socialist in nature. If we keep this discussion within the capitalist framework, then the proper salary is simply $1 more than a competitor is willing to pay said employee. Thus it is arguable that this particular employee was extremely overpaid.

phaus2• 13 years ago

Its amazing money for someone living in India, but the guy in question was moving to America. If he's good enough for them to want him to work in the U.S., they should be willing to pay him appropriately to do so.

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

If the worker in question accepted the offer, then if seems that the pay was appropriate.

res0nat0r2• 13 years ago

Not quite sure if this is illegal though.

I switched from the helpdesk at my first job to being a senior sysadmin working with the highest paid people on site for my gig. My company wanted to give me ~2% raises a year from the helpdesk wage to what was the average for my new position, vs. bumping me up to the avg salary for the new position when I switched teams.

So I would have worked side by site with my peers for ~10 years to catch up to what I should have been paid walking in the door. Since they wouldn't pay me what I should have been worth I quit.

avighnay2• 13 years ago

I am not for political correctness but let me try to counter your perspective

Since the Indian employee has a good track record and the company is willing to transfer him to US, lets assume that he has around 8-10 years of experience.

This would qualify the person for about INR 2 to 2.5 M annual pay excluding commissions. This is about USD 35 - 40K

For such a pay, the quality of living of the Indian person would be

(might vary slightly based on the city in India)

1. Owns at least one 3BHK house / apartment right in the middle of the city (~ 10-15 minute commute to office) with groceries/malls within walking distance or max 10 mins drive

2. Drives own car (atleast Honda City, Ford Fiesta, Hyundai Verna), with a good chance of a second car

3. Owns some of the following: iPhone, iPad, Samsung G S4/Note, smart tv, home theatre system, a modern kitchen, full internet connectivity, power backup

4. Good chance of at least one child and that child studying in a leading private school

5. Has a paid help for daily chores (washing, cleaning etc.)

6. All labour for any domestic purpose electric, plumbing, car mechanic etc. are all down right affordable without even a pinch

50K definitely is higher than the 35-40K USD he is receiving and it is upto the person to accept it. However, the person would definitely be compromising as I doubt if the 50K USD will assure the above list when the person chooses to live in the US

jessaustin• 13 years ago

USA marketing must be top-notch, if smart people are willing to give up all that to come here.

ck22• 13 years ago

If this outrages you, wait 'til you hear about all the jobs corporations ship overseas just to pay a fraction of and write it off.

You mean there are a-holes in the business world?

PhasmaFelis3• 13 years ago

What's your point? We shouldn't fight against bad things because worse things also exist?

ck22• 13 years ago

No I mean you are protesting the wrong things.

abc_lisper• 13 years ago

Not sure what is going on here. A person on a H-1B visa, should be paid atleast 60k in the US. In California, it is somewhat higher.

Either this guy is coming on B-1 visa, or something is wrong here.

konceptz• 13 years ago

I'll just comment on an experience that someone had while interviewing at oracle.

A friend, recently graduated from my school, was flown to their headquarters for a final round of interviews. She asked "What does your company look for in a candidate?"

She got the one word response, "Testosterone."

She did not get the job.

Coincidentally my friend is Indian.

packetslave• 13 years ago

If that really happened, your friend likely has grounds for legal action.

I have a hard time believing that even at Oracle someone would be stupid enough to say that to a candidate.

potato1• 13 years ago

Please don't act like Oracle is the only SV company doing this. The free markets decided that pervasive racism in compensation is OK in SV.

suyash• 13 years ago

agree, there are several companies in SV who are paying full time employees even less than 50K working in technology.

noonereally2• 13 years ago

50K in california will be like 2K in saving after being ultra-frugal.

powertower• 13 years ago

My first impression was this person attempted to inject race into everything at Oracle and higher-ups simply just had enough of it and fired him.

50K is unthinkable of an offer while but 60K is not... Whatever.

It's clear the offer made was 50K because the employee was willing to take it to get the benefit of working US-side. Not because he was being discriminated against.

The only issue was someone said something stupid.

ashwinaj• 13 years ago

It's 2014, it's a globalized world. There are thousands of Americans living in India and vice-versa (probably more Indians in the US). The "good money for an Indian" if true, is clearly a despicable statement to make about a fellow employee with regards to his/her pay. I understand the posts about salary negotiation, but he/she wasn't directly engaged in it nor should someone's background/living standards shouldn't be taken into consideration when being posted in another country. Where are all the company moral values? Or quite simply where is human decency? Shameful, if true.

known• 13 years ago

Globalization is Zero-Sum. Amend your Constitution accordingly. Otherwise your future generations will regret.

Lawsuit: Oracle called $50K 'good money for an Indian'

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