A computer science professor's never-ending H-1B fight

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9110379

by newacc • 17 years ago

16 12 17 years ago

yardie• 17 years ago

He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill. I could sponsor a distant cousin and he would get in before a highly talented programmer who doesn't have any famillial connections in the US.

And as a programmer I feel like my best years are starting to be behind me. I've still got a fresh mind, but when I leave the office my wrists are killing me. I've just entered my 30s and I'm already telling my wife I don't know how long I'll be able to do the job I love. I won't discourage my son form seeking the same profession but I don't know if I'll have the same passion to encourage him in this profession. I sometimes wonder if programming will evolve to fit the human body or if the body can cope with the intricate work of banging at a keyboard constantly.

barrkel• 17 years ago

Banging at a keyboard constantly - you're doing it wrong. More thinking, less typing. That, or give up the Java.

newacc• 17 years ago

Just like financial, health and immigration reforms, Obama should also bring educational reforms ASAP - if americans don't want their jobs to be outsourced then they have to produce more engineers, nurses, doctors etc., period.

The shortage of skilled labor is the major complain and its been actively voiced by all (including Bill Gates) ... the whole H1B issue has 2 major components: 1. shortage of skilled labor and 2. cheap labor available else where. There is also 3rd important issue which is exploitation of H1B visa holders by the employers (the body-shoppers) --- but above all if you have enough supply then employers won't line-up to hire outsiders the way they started doing since y2k, also because of high increase in salaries and other logistics in 3rd world countries (read India) the difference between insource and outsource is not that big anymore ...

while the 3rd issue is more important for all who came here with a dream of easy riding and then getting disappointed also needs reforms in regulation and awareness.

anamax• 17 years ago

> He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill.

That paragraph is much too weak.

H1Bs are a small fraction of US legal immigration. Illegal immigration swamps legal immigration.

We could increase H1B by 10x and easily have less total immigration.

The advocates for increased H1B are being played.

We've had the bait and switch game on immigration before. We gave amnesty supposedly in return for effective enforcement. We didn't get enforcement.

As to the whole "jobs Americans won't do", I've done farm labor. Also, when one of the meat packing plants lost many of its "undocumented" workers, folks who actually had a legal right to work in this country applied.

queensnake2• 17 years ago

Just to boost your "Americans doing jobs Americans won't do" anecdote with a bigger one (at least in these hard times):

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=118219&pr...

queensnake2• 17 years ago

This article is from last year. The Durbin/Grassley bill he talks about came and went, but it's back this year. Here's a pretty decent discussion:

http://seeker.dice.com/olc/message.jspa?messageID=128406

geebee3• 17 years ago

I recently read an article about visas for foreign nurses on businessweek. President Obama is quoted: " "The notion that we would have to import nurses makes absolutely no sense," Obama said at a health-care forum in March. "There are a lot of people [in the U.S.] who would love to be in that helping profession, and yet we just aren't providing the resources to get them trained—that's something we've got to fix." "

(the link is http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/...)

It's interesting that our president, who supports an increase in H1Bs for the high tech industry, would take this position where it comes to nursing.

It's made me very cynical. Ultimately, this all comes down to power.

Nurses have a shared experience (a specific education requirement), as well as a specific licensing procedure that can be used as a gateway. They also don't compete with each other the way programmers do (yes, programmers share knowledge, but a nurse a kaiser clearly isn't competing with a nurse at beth israel the way a programmer at google competes with one at microsoft).

Nurses also have a very, very powerful union, and society pretty much backs them up, as the profession is held in high esteem. If a hospital tried to bring in foreign nurses, engage in "knowledge transfer", and then fire the older americans with higher salaries, the union would vote to strike, the hospital would cease to operate, the public would back the nurses, and management would completely capitulate.

I don't even know if Obama sees the potential inconsistency. That's what power does. People often don't see themselves as "capitulating" to power. Instead, they respect power, and negotiate accordingly.

I used to be much more in favor of "free markets". I still am in theory - what I say is "I'm all in favor of free markets - if you find one, please let me know, I'd love to participate". But at this point in my live, I've concluded that working in a "free market" is like wandering around the wild west without a gun. Sure, it'd be nice if we all put down our arms, but if you're the only one who does this, you're just a chump. To me, that's what free markets are - a chump's game.

I applaud Prof Matloff for fighting this. People who have read my posts probably know that I'm in favor of a small number of visas for very talented people (in any field), but I think we're unintentionally eradicating our home-grown STEM (science technology engineering mathematics) workforce. The last line is especially chilling - parents in Silicon Valley know what's going on, and they no longer encourage their children to pursue the field. I actually think that this, in the long run, will severely hurt the US economy, and we're doing it to ourselves. Yes, allow talented workers to come here. No, don't issue so many visas that young Americans are rightly deterred from entering the field.

TriinT• 17 years ago

You might want to try to make your point in a more succinct manner next time...

tc2• 17 years ago

I was with you until the last two paragraphs. After that point, you got it all backwards. Let's see:

that's what free markets are - a chump's game

You're blaming the wrong thing. I believe you mean to say, "pretending that the markets we have now are free is a chump's game." Is this the sort of hypothetical story that you have in mind:

"Joe the programmer has gotten laid off from three companies that ended up going out of business while watching insurance giants and bankers get bailed out by the government, seeing people in licensed professions (lawyers, doctors, nurses) remain secure in their lucrative jobs, and observing that government employees never get fired, have great benefits, high pay, and low levels of work and stress."

If so, you can make a case that Joe is a chump. You could argue that he should be using force to get a better deal at the expense of others rather than naïvely working to increase total wealth. But in any case, the problem has to do with the breakdown of the rule of law, disregard for property rights, and neglecting to observe the hidden costs. Free markets have nothing to do with this.

Yes, allow talented workers to come here. No, don't issue so many visas that young Americans are rightly deterred from entering the field.

The American economy has grown to its present level because smart, hardworking people built companies in America -- not because people who were Americans at the time of their birth built companies. How would America be any better if Sergey Brin's father had been one of those marginal cases you had decided to keep out? It's easy to forget that if we keep out X Indian individuals, some Y of those individuals might go on to build the next Cisco -- and if they're excluded from America, that company might be built in India. The other governments of the world would love it if we further closed our borders (to any degree).

geebee3• 17 years ago

I agree, 100%. I phrased that badly. The chump's game is blithely accepting the markets we have as "free".

<it's easy to forget that if we keep out X Indian individuals, some Y of those individuals might go on to build the next Cisco -- and if they're excluded from America, that company might be built in India.>

That's true. But the US takes 1.2 million immigrants a year. I consider that to be a high number, but that's really just a matter of opinion. But we (almost) all have our limits. Should we increase it to 2.4 million so we don't lose the marginal cases? Even if we do, there will still be marginal cases. So then should we increase it to 4.8 million/year? I'm sure we could find takers. Eventually, we have to accept that as a practical matter, some of the people who want to come here aren't going to get to - and some of them would have been truly excellent Americans.

On this one, I completely disagree. Seven of the top 10 users of the H1B visa are actually Indian outsourcing firms. They use the visa to cycle a worker through the US to learn the job, then bring that worker back home to outsource the job. India actually gets quite angry with the US when we talk about limiting H1B visas.

A computer science professor's never-ending H-1B fight

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