Datomic Pro Starter Edition

http://blog.datomic.com/2013/11/datomic-pro-starter-edition.html

by puredanger • 13 years ago

111 57 13 years ago

blog.datomic.com

tony_landis2• 13 years ago

I really like what the guys at cognitect are doing.

espeed3• 13 years ago

This is great. Having a free Datomic version that matches Datomic Pro's architecture and supports all of its external storage engines certainly simplifies the scale path and makes design decisions easier.

BTW: The pricing page has more details (http://www.datomic.com/pricing.html) -- scroll down to see a comparison.

sgrove2• 13 years ago

Wow, very cool indeed. We worked on an open-source community[1] tool using Datomic/Codeq[2], and the ops portion was/has been pretty unpleasant. I'd love to see Datomic-as-a-Service popup, even as a only-meant-for-starter-projects, just so that experimenting with it could be that much easier. That might be possible with the new license, depending on how the Cognitect team sees it.

[1] The service is a frontend to Codeq, having imported many Clojure repos: http://www.jidaexplorer.com/

[2] http://blog.datomic.com/2012/10/codeq.html

EDIT: Added links.

drcode• 13 years ago

Yeah, a Datomic service would be soooo nice.

dustingetz2• 13 years ago

I would like to know more about datomic from an ops perspective if you feel like elaborating?

cgag• 13 years ago

Yes, same, I think a lot of people would be interested.

jeletonskelly3• 13 years ago

I've been working with Datomic, as a developer, in a production environment for the last 4-5 months. In terms of the work done by your ops guys, I'd say it really depends on how you're using it. Datomic has it's own AMI, which can be a hassle if you're used to rolling your own (which we ended up doing). I'd say one of the biggest challenges to overcome on the ops side is dealing with transactor failures. If a transactor dies, then the data from the peers will likely just fall on the floor. If you use DDB as a store, you have to keep an eye on your provisioning and scale appropriately.

lucian1900• 13 years ago

The name is a bit silly. It should be called just "Datomic Starter".

I'm still hoping for an open source edition :)

VaedaStrike3• 13 years ago

This opens so many doors all around.

I'm literally giddy at this news.

I want to leave my day job right now and go home and work on my Cognitect stack web app.

I hope I can quickly get to the point where I need to (and then will be far more able to) purchase Datomic.

stolio3• 13 years ago

Can anybody explain how the 2-peer restriction works with web-apps? It's my biggest fear in making the jump.

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

Two JVM processes, far as I'm aware. In practice, a single peer gets you pretty far, especially if you're a Clojure user.

stolio3• 13 years ago

I guess where I'm getting lost is the terminology - I was under the impression that end-users are peers[0], so I'm worried about maxing out at two users. But if the limit is whatever a transactor can handle then I doubt I'd ever hit it and I might as well commit.

I'm looking at using it as part of a Clojure backend, if that matters.

[0] http://docs.datomic.com/javadoc/datomic/Peer.html

edit: grammar

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

Using Datomic Pro at work for a data warehouse and soon for another project for <REDACTED>.

I'm working on a migration toolkit for Datomic. (Migrating schemas, not between database kinds.)

Ask me questions about the API, my experience with ops, or anything else if you like.

dustingetz2• 13 years ago

Can you ramble about how datomic is from ops perspective for a moment if you will? thanks

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

Just to clarify, I don't know what problems sgrove ran into, I've asked him in IRC and will elaborate if he tells me, but at present, I dunno.

So here's what I have encountered:

Datomic's primary limitation is at the transactor level. Storage is a non-issue, especially if you're using DynamoDB. Even with PostgreSQL write-throughput was ridic because of the way they're using the database.

Transactor fail-over I'm not sure I'd take too seriously, but I don't think they'll drop any writes on the floor either.

You shouldn't attempt to run a datomic transactor on a cheapo VPS. Try to put together at least 4 gb of RAM. Which is the same as what's currently standard for consumer laptops. No excuses.

Deploying Datomic itself is straight-forward. The config is super simple and all you need as a dependency is Java. I'm actually a little puzzled that people want "Datomic as a Service". Datomic and PostgreSQL were the simplest parts of my stack to deploy.

You want beefy peers as well so as to make maximum use of the peer limitations on the license. This isn't as big of a deal as people think because you're not structuring your app the way Rails and Django apps do on Heroku. You don't do 1 beefy database + 5,000 terrible VPSes. Not only is that a management overhead (automation or not), but you're better off vertically scaling a couple peers first before running a shitload of dumb VPSes running your service.

The running assumption is that you should use DynamoDB, but PostgreSQL was seriously efficient for our purposes.

Indexing adds write overhead, but given the current limitations on what you can change in the schema online (nothing), you want to plan ahead here.

If you fail to anticipate something in your schema, you'll have to use a migration toolkit such as I plan to release soon.

The componentized nature of Datomic makes vertical scaling fairly pleasant as you can more precisely target what you're upgrading/improving.

You probably want to include a pass-through querying API in your peers accessing Datomic so that you don't have to run the REST service. This'll enable access to the data from a long-tail of servers that don't necessarily need to be that close to the data and are performing dumb queries. This solves the "but my webapp needs 100 crappy VPSes to perform!" problem.

Any kind of heavy-duty aggregation/analytical workloads against a Datomic dataset should be performed on a big peer with memcached. Use roll-ups for pete's sake! You can use a bi-temporal timeline with analytics data but I haven't fully explored the implications beyond Datomic making querying along that dimension nicer.

The Doc Brown array store presented at the Clojure meetup last night is a very interesting option for people doing multi-dimensional slicing of analytics data.

I'd personally use Datomic as a stand-in for any SQL database doing an OLTP workload, where previously I would've used PostgreSQL. Especially if history or reproducible results are important. That having been said, it appears to be adaptable to workloads I wouldn't have expected (analytics).

rbolkey• 13 years ago

I'm interested in what and how quick the development/testing cycle is. How quickly can you spin up, populate, and destroy a test instance for integration testing? How do you iterate on feature development against it?

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

Super fast, better than any SQL database or MongoDB.

Datomic (free and pro) has an "in memory" version that I used when developing my Clojure application. Makes firing off test-cases super simple and nice.

I used fixtures (edn) for the schema and for example data as well.

I would reload/dump/interact with the in-memory database in my REPL directly. Quite nice.

You can run a test instance (free/dev, which uses H2), that's no big deal to setup either, same as running a local MongoDB or PostgreSQL instance. Ease-of-configuration is on par with MongoDB but with sane defaults. It "just works".

I use environment variables for configuration, so the default Datomic database is just an in-memory instance, but I can point it to a localhost free instance easily.

Whether I use a free instance or an in-memory instance depends on whether or not I need the full transaction log. Typically no, but the migration toolkit I'm working on requires a persistent database so the defaults there are different for testing/development.

I'm seriously in love with a database that has a embedded and "real world" modes of operation with parity in their functionality (except for the log).

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

I posted my migration toolkit Brambling to HN.

You can find it here: https://github.com/bitemyapp/brambling/

Jemaclus4• 13 years ago

Companies really need to do a better job of making ELI5 descriptions. This means nothing to me:

Datomic is a database of flexible, time-based facts, supporting queries and joins, with elastic scalability, and ACID transactions. Datomic can leverage highly-available, distributed storage services, and puts declarative power into the hands of application developers.

What does that even mean? I'm pretty good at databases, and I know what transactions and queries and joins and stuff, but this explanation does a pretty poor job of explaining what Datatomic is and why I should use it.

What's a "time-based fact"? What does putting "declarative power in the hands of application developers" mean? Don't all databases support queries? Don't most relational databases support joins and transactions?

It just seems like a buzz-word filled fluff phrase that says "Datatomic is a database," but I don't know why I would use it over, say, MySQL or Mongo or whatever.

I had to go to Cognitect's site (http://cognitect.com/datomic) to get a better explanation:

Datomic is built on immutable data; facts are never forgotten or overwritten. This means complete auditability is built in from the start - including the transactions that modify your database. And because Datomic is built on immutable data, you can explore possible future scenarios by issuing transactions against a database and decide to commit them only after verifying the results.

Ok, that makes a little more sense, but it's still not clear what differentiates this from other database systems.

I'm not affiliated with them at all, but I think SiftScience.com does a great job of explaining their product simply and efficiently: https://siftscience.com/

Fight Fraud with Machine Learning Sift Science monitors your site's traffic in real time and alerts you instantly to fraudulent activity.

Simply detects fraud. Done.

Or EasyPost.com:

Shipping for developers EasyPost allows you to integrate shipping APIs into any application in minutes.

Don't just spit buzz words and technical terms at me. Tell me what it does.

Datomic is a database that, among other things, specializes in tracking data over time, allowing you to test a transaction before saving the data. True accountability from the beginning!

Probably not even accurate (again, I don't understand Datomic's premise), but that sounds more explanatory than their current buzz word-filled blurb.

To any startups watching: have something on your front page that is an ELI5 description of your product.

cordite2• 13 years ago

I had to look up what ELI5 meant :)

For any others that are wondering, "Explain Like I'm 5"

hammerandtongs• 13 years ago

Obviously fails the ELI5 but -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_database

coolsunglasses8• 13 years ago

Reproducibility of results from the canonical data store thanks to having the full history of everything is pretty great.

"Code can never corrupt data again"

rdtsc4• 13 years ago

In theory sounds good but this is just not feasible.

Couple of scenarios:

1) A runaway data generator. Somehow you end up confusing milliseconds with seconds and now you start logging 1000x more data than you intended, you leave for the weekend and find your storage is full of junk

2) Sensitive data. Felix has just inserted all the passwords and credit card numbers in the database.

puredanger4• 13 years ago

"Time-based fact" = entity-attribute-value at time. Example: Alex likes nachos at 5 pm.

"Declarative power" = among other things, datalog queries. SQL is also relatively declarative. Datomic has the benefit of declaring queries as data, not as munged strings.

"Facts are never forgotten or overwritten" = as the world changes, add a new record at a new timestamp. Traditional relational dbs modify the old record destroying previous values. The database notion of time (series of transactions) is made explicit and available as part of the query (query the db at a particular point in time or even join databases from different points in time).

brandonbloom2• 13 years ago

You're right, their description should be clearer, or have an elaboration or something. But for onlookers:

flexible

Minimal, non-tabular schema

time-based

All historical values are preserved.

facts

Triple store: Entity / Attribute / Value

with time:

Quad store: Entity / Attribute / Value / TIME

supporting queries and joins

Datalog query language

with elastic scalability

Reads are uncoordinated, so they scale horizontally

ACID transactions.

You can trust the database won't lose stuff you write to it.

leverage highly-available, distributed storage services

Storage engines are pluggable. You can choose backends such as filesystems, Riak, Dynamo, traditional SQL databases, etc.

puts declarative power into the hands of application developers.

Reads occur in-process, like an embedded database. Queries, traversal, and other reads occurs locally, without network round trips.

cordite2• 13 years ago

There's definitely a lot more to ACID than the part you mention, which fulfills the D or Durability aspect.

Though to any competent database engineer, they already know what ACID is.

The videos on datomic's website help clarify the understanding, but that isn't as accessible as well written text.

Jemaclus4• 13 years ago

Thanks for breaking down the buzzwords into something understandable!

tony_landis2• 13 years ago

Generally speaking, five year olds should not be choosing databases for anything critical. But I agree that Datomic and company can do better with their marketing and general product description.

Here is one of the better explanations I have seen:

http://www.flyingmachinestudios.com/programming/datomic-for-...

stonemetal• 13 years ago

It is a NoSQL database with a novel architecture. It uses schemas, supports transactions, historical queries, and it doesn't use a client server model.

Jemaclus4• 13 years ago

Now this I understand. Thanks.

lazylland• 13 years ago

what's really worrying is that in all this time I've never seen a convincing benchmark, to motivate diving 'head first' into Datomic. For all the hate that the MongoDB guys get, they alteast piqued interest with some arresting charts and figures.

Right now, the impression I get is, "ooh, because Rich Hickey..."

Could anyone share anecdotes to the counter ?

VaedaStrike3• 13 years ago

I'm self-taught at Relational Database Design. I spent two years worth of about all of my free time learning, and creating, large normalized SQL schemas. One of the things that most struck me was the capacity to get virtually all the advantages of a relational database without the baggage and rigidity. Add to that the fact that you have a distributed database with almost none of the baggage usually associated with such was another big thing for me.

Granted I'm coming from a do-it-myself green-field project, but the things that Datomic's structure and design opens up for my personal project mean that me, a one man show, can far more easily go toe to toe with the big guys with massive teams to design and deploy their apps and databases.

Potential is what I see, and it's far more than I've seen with just about any other technology that I can think of. I really think Datomic is a game changer, at least for the few awake enough to see it.

lazerwalker• 13 years ago

I haven't actually used Datomic yet, but what piques my interest isn't necessarily "ooh, Rich Hickey" as much as "ooh, the Clojure/functional approach to data immutability applied to a database". The appeal, to me at least, is in the potential to make my life easier as a product engineer, rather than as a DBA or devops guy.

espeed3• 13 years ago

See "Datomic: Can Simple be also Fast?"(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426362)

etherealG• 13 years ago

valuable software isn't always easy and quick to pick up. simple things can be difficult to familiarise yourself with.

learning the value of functional style took ages for me to grok, but it's been one of the biggest values ever.

i find it a little ironic considering one of the first and best talks i've seen from hickey is 'simple made easy'. you'd likely learn a lot from a watch of that, or perhaps more detail about datomic in any of the talks on datomic.

espeed3• 13 years ago

Here's the new site: http://cognitect.com/datomic

And Datomic has been discussed in detail here...

* Rich Hickey on Datomic: Datalog, Databases, Persistent Data Structures (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3797272)

* Rich Hickey on Datomic, CAP and ACID (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5093037)

* The Architecture of Datomic (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4732524)

* Datomic Free Edition (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4286121)

* Thinking in Datomic (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4215765)

* Datomic: Can Simple be also Fast? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426362)

Docs: http://docs.datomic.com

UPDATE: Jernau gives a great practical overview in his screencast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao7xEwCjrWQ) on building a basic app with Datomic, Clojure, and Light Table.

Also see "Learn Datalog Today" (http://www.learndatalogtoday.org) for an interactive Datalog tutorial.

Jemaclus4• 13 years ago

Why would I waste my time reading all of those articles or watching a screencast, if I don't have any idea what Datomic is? In order for me to be interested enough to click any of those links, I would have to think Datomic is a) interesting, b) relevant to me, or c) worth my time. The current website doesn't accomplish any of those objectives. That's what i'm getting at.

I'm sure it's a wonderful app, but its first-impression presentation doesn't tell me what it is I'm looking at. And as such, I'm just going to click away and find something else.

rsanders• 13 years ago

Does the Datomic Console app count against the 2 peer limit when running?

redinger2• 13 years ago

Yes, Datomic console counts as a connected peer.

rdtsc4• 13 years ago

Can someone clarify for me. If data is never deleted and updated, one can build a very nice architecture, rich caching clients and all that, which is what they've done. I like that.

What happens in these 2 cases (and sorry for repeating myself I already mentioned them below).

1) Runaway data generator. Someone either messed up a test or confused the units on a timer and now you are logging thousands of times the rate you expected. All this ends in your database. Does just adding a deletion record for each on of those "fix" the problem, but if it is immutable doesn't it still suck up the storage.

2) Sensitive data. Someone somehow shoved plaintext passwords, social security numbers, ICBM launch codes in the database. What do you do in that case.

puredanger4• 13 years ago

Datomic offers excision to cover cases like these (or other common cases where you are required by law to forget things). http://blog.datomic.com/2013/05/excision.html

Note that even in this case, you can remember that you decided to forget, as a key premise of Datomic is that you always know how and why you came to record (or forget) a fact.

rdtsc4• 13 years ago

Alright, that makes sense. Now it is interesting how the fact that you decided to forget would work. I guess if one always accesses the data via the official API and at the latest known state, that will work. But presumably the data will still be in stored in binary form in the back-end.

Another perhaps related question, does one have the option to "travel in time". Say I record that I forgot my mistakenly added passwords. But an attacker knows when that happens. Can they go back and inspect the data state right before the point when I forgot the data?

Datomic Pro Starter Edition

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