Ask HN: Thoughts on performance-enhancing drugs?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=659976

by clicks • 17 years ago

36 66 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm 21 years old, an electrical engineering student, and feeling a little defeated--because I haven't been doing very well in my classes (and other things in general). I've isolated the problem to be with my will power - I never take initiatives, and I keep procrastinating on doing homework. I also have a hunch that I don't get as much out of the lectures as my peers do.

Yesterday my older brother approached me and proposed the idea of taking performance-enhancing drugs (I forget the names, but I assume he named the more prominent drugs for attention-deficit disorder, 'confidence-heightening' and all that that you've probably heard of). Naturally, for my convictions, I ran the other way. I myself used to be the one who would vociferously debate against these drugs (on the line that if I'm unhappy, then it's for a reason - something happened to me, a certain natural chain of events... getting at the problem with chemical changes to the body sounds like a terrifically frightening idea; likewise, in school, I always thought that ADHD was ... well, nothing, that the kids were simply spoiled and just not trying hard enough). Alas, things have changed quite a bit.

I would greatly appreciate if any of you could voice your thoughts on performance-enhancing drugs.

(Lastly, I'm sorry if my asking isn't appropriate/on-topic for this place, but I thought for my own good I best ask the question to the community I esteem most highly :))

ScottWhigham• 17 years ago

This is a great place for these types of questions. It's been discussed before here quite a bit - http://searchyc.com/search/yc is down now or I could offer a few links.

I don't consider Adderall/Ritalin/Concerta "performance-enhancing drugs" if you have ADHD. The way my son's doctor explained was great: having ADHD is sort of like having 20/60 vision. If you have 20/60 vision, you need glasses to be able to focus. Kids with ADHD need help focusing in exactly the same way and that's where the drugs come in.

Now, there are several performance-enhancing drugs that I've seen people talk about here but I can't remember them. Sorry.

greengirl5123• 17 years ago

I've used Adderall for "performance enhancement"-usually writing essays and/or studying all night in college. Used occasionally, I'll admit it was helpful. Loved it. But if you don't have ADHD and you use it all the time, it can hurt you. These drugs are pretty powerful stimulants and can cause some pretty serious problems if you abuse them with any frequency. Also, Adderall won't give you willpower. If your problem is that you can't focus and get distracted, it might help you remain focused and be more productive. But if your problem is just that you'd rather play Halo, you're just going to become a more focused Halo player.

Before you try performance-enhancing drugs, I think you need to examine why you're having problems studying. Are you just not interested in the material? Maybe you need to be studying something that captures your imagination. Are you depressed? In that case, if you can't find an underlying cause, you may need antidepressants or therapy or both.

bretthoerner2• 17 years ago

> But if you don't have ADHD and you use it all the time, it can hurt you.

How so? I don't think taking Adderall with or without ADHD has any different effect on the body. The doctor needs to monitor your heart rate and blood pressure closely either way.

edit: Down voted... for what? I'm asking for a citation. FWIW, I have first hand experience and am (legitimately/legally) on Adderall.

FluidDjango• 17 years ago

As I understand it, there is a very different way these meds work in folks with/without ADHD. With kids at least: it is paradoxical how "hyper" kids are calmed by the use of stimulants - unlike the effects of stimulants on the rest of us.

There are other threads here on hackers' experience with ritalin / adderal / their benefits, addiction potential, and side effects. There has also been an item in news in last couple days about a cardiac death for a teen prescribed one of these stimulants. Buyer (and patient) be ware: especially if your doc has not checked you out for contraindications.

htsh5• 17 years ago

You might be scientifically right in questioning the veracity of that specific statement but at the same time its generally true and good advice. In other words, Adderall is a powerful drug with some potentially serious side effects. If you haven't been prescribed it, chances are it'll end up bad.

For example, its got a high chance of ending up poorly if you have any sleep issues, if you have depression, if you have an addictive personality, if you're an alcoholic, or if you smoke weed (generally the paranoia one experiences from weed can make amphetamines even more dangerous).

I think that's why folks are downvoting you. You might have a small point here, but its rather nitpicky. If you don't have ADD and you're using Adderall all the time, I'd bet money its going to hurt someone, which is all the OP said.

dalecarnegie• 17 years ago

Posting anonymously

I recently got a prescription for Adderall. I've had trouble with procrastination and some other behavior typically associated with adult ADHD.

On a typical day, I'll eat a big breakfast, then take a pill. About an hour later I'll get a sense of euphoria and go into the zone. The euphoria wears off after another hour or so but for the next few hours I'm able to concentrate really well on whatever I'm doing.

The most noticeable side effect for me has been loss of appetite. It's kinda creepy for me to look at my watch, realize I haven't eaten in 8 hours, and not feel hungry at all. I also notice sometimes that I'm thirsty, but don't bother getting a drink because I'm too engrossed in whatever I'm working on.

greengirl512 is right though. I still have to force myself to start working. But once I start I don't stop. It's the same for books and video games too. In a way it's like replacing ADHD with OCD.

I think it's worth trying. If you're 21 and in college it shouldn't be hard to get a pill, but I would recommend scheduling an appointment with a doctor and telling him or her what you've told us. With most health insurance, a month's prescription will cost you what a single pill would cost you from a dealer.

seshagiric• 17 years ago

"...But if your problem is just that you'd rather play Halo, you're just going to become a more focused Halo player..."

Totally.

htsh5• 17 years ago

Be careful. I had a nightmare of a time with Adderall, which led to a manic episode and a year of my life lost to recovery. Whatever you do, don't ask us, ask your doctor.

Its a rare side effect but it happens for folks who are susceptible to depression or bipolar stuff..

fiaz• 17 years ago

Absolutely correct - please consult with your doctor before you take any advice off of the internet. Messing around with your neural circuitry may cause more harm than good.

TheSOB88• 17 years ago

Because doctors know everything. I know a woman whose doctors took a year to find the broken pieces of bone swimming around her leg because they were sure her back was causing her leg pain and a man whose brother was diagnosed with MS because of exposure to a chemical known to cause MS-like symptoms (in a different order). Myself, I've been told by doctors that a joint problem would heal in a month - after it had already been six months. Then there's the story of how doctors failed to notice the absence of one of my male organs until I brought it to their attention at age 10.

Seems to me that most doctors are pretty much robots with a lot of institutionalized "knowledge".

Zak2• 17 years ago

I feel the need to caution the OP that the average doctor can't be counted on to know more about messing around with neural circuitry than random people you find on the Internet. We simply don't have the scientific knowledge at this point to make reliable predictions about the effect of drugs like adderall on a given person.

From what I've been able to tell, all drugs that act as neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors (including amphetamines like adderall) have a strong potential to cause unpredictable and undesirable side effects. It seems wise to use such drugs only as a last resort to treat a debilitating condition. Lack of motivation suggests you might want to find something more compelling to work on.

dlnovell2• 17 years ago

I would say do NOT ask your doctor. I walked straight into an urgent care clinic and had a physician I had never had before. I said "I have a hard time focusing during class and doing homework, I think I'm ADD. Can I have some adderol?". That was it. He wrote me a prescription with refills for a year. Doctors are WAY too happy to write prescriptions and would rather do that then help you figure out the underlying cause of your health issues.

Adderol(and some of the other drugs) were a nightmare for me. I was uber-productive on them, but I'll never use any of that crap again. I'd rather be less effective than use amphetamines.

I've considered using nootropics (sp?), but I think getting good sleep and finding a motivational visualization to focus on before getting to work is pretty effective.

htsh5• 17 years ago

That's the exception more than the rule.

And frankly, what you say happened is illegal in America. Adderall is a schedule 2 controlled substance, which means no refills at all, much less for a year.

edit: I can't reply below so I'll do it here. Agreed -- there's a scary underside to this story and its that at most universities (especially the top-tier), its much too easy to walk in and get a prescription. Also, at both universities I've attended it was known that you could buy it in certain areas in the library.

silentbicycle• 17 years ago

This question seems to come up periodically here.

I wouldn't even consider nootropics until you're already getting plenty of sleep, eating well, exercising regularly, and not using too much caffeine or alcohol. Those things have a much bigger impact on your state of mind. Nootropics are attractive in part because they represent the dream of sharpening your focus without all that boring lifestyle stuff.

Piracetam is cheap, studied (at least compared to the rest...), and doesn't have any particularly bad side effects. If you're going to take anything, that might be a better place to start than amphetamines (!) such as adderall. Of course, I'm not a doctor, but I doubt you are, either.

I've had the best results with green tea (which includes l-theanine) and getting enough sleep, FWIW. (Also, meditation helps.)

htsh5• 17 years ago

Agree completely. The catch-22 here is that if you're not getting good sleep as it is, Adderall is most certainly not going to help. And not sleeping over time has some pretty hefty consequences.

clicks• 17 years ago

Then it's settled. Just having read all of the comments made, I'm happy to see that there is somewhat of a consensus here- along the lines of what you yourself said: "I wouldn't even consider nootropics until you're already getting plenty of sleep, eating well, exercising regularly, and not using too much caffeine or alcohol" - I don't get a lot of sleep (haven't been getting it for the last 6 or so years, averaging in at 5-6 hours/day), my eating habits have been unhealthy since my childhood, I never exercise (I'm extremely thin despite of that), and I have been drinking British/Indian tea (with lots of sugar and milk) probably in what's considered an 'excess amount' since my earliest memory (but no alcohol, weed, or Halo :)).

I'll try my darnedest in the forthcoming semester to have better sleeping/eating/exercising habits. Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. (I was thinking to add a few more details to my questions and replies that I think are unique in my case, i.e., I hail from a third-world country, the first time I attended school was in America at the age of 12, and I have severe social anxiety, which, very strangely, I trace back to having conflicts in living in a multi-cultural family - but I decided not to add these details, since it would make for a disheveled, disorderly discussion). Thanks again everyone. :)

enedi• 17 years ago

Good luck to you! It wasn't until this past semester that I developed much better sleeping/study habits. Trying to be a superstar with 5 hours of sleep is dumb (unless that's enough for you =P .) Actually being a superstar with as much as sleep as you need is much, much smarter.

Also, this made me chuckle a little bit, just because, coincidentally, this is on the front page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=660720.

Adlai2• 17 years ago

I've had a bit of personal experience with Ritalin. I focus very well on things which interest me, but I have a much harder time focusing on anything less interesting. I tried Ritalin very briefly (for a few weeks). As far as I could tell, it just made everything equally "interesting", and I could focus on whatever I chose to.

Definitely consult with a doctor, preferably one who specializes in this type of medication. Keep in mind that everything has a side-effect, and that mixing various drugs (illegal or not) can have unexpected results. In other words, learn as much as you can about anything you might use, and decide whether to use it based on that.

I'm also about whether AD(H)D is a real condition in the sense that some people have it, and others don't. However, I definitely agree with the sentiment in one of the other replies below, of how it's like vision -- everybody has a different preciseness of vision. If your vision is bad enough, you get glasses. If you believe that your attention problems are bad enough (they seem to be, from your post), then consult with a doctor.

I hope you find a good treatment.

rntz• 17 years ago

As an ADHD-affected person myself, the above resonates strongly with me as a description of its symptoms, and indeed of my thoughts regarding ADHD itself. I have been on ADHD medication (first Ritalin, then Concerta; both use methylphenidate as their active ingredient, as opposed to Adderall) for over a decade now, and have suffered negligible ill effects.

One thing in particular I'd like to note is that my dosage has steadily decreased over the years, not just because my symptoms have become less severe, but because I have noticed there is a certain "threshold" dosage - not just of methylphenidate, but of stimulants in general - beyond which the effects of further medication or stimulants on me change. This change is not a complete reversal; a stimulant is still a stimulant. But up to this threshold, stimulants aid my ability to resist impulses and concentrate on things I may not be interested in, while beyond it, they make me hyperactive and give me the jitters without significantly aiding my concentration. Furthering the vision analogy, this threshold seems to me the logical equivalent of 20/20 vision. This threshold dosage has itself been steadily decreasing. (My actual vision, on the other hand, has been steadily getting worse.)

Adlai2• 17 years ago

I meant to say, in the last paragraph, that I'm also not sure about AD(H)D being a real medical condition. Doesn't really change the sentiment of my post, though.

jnorthrop• 17 years ago

I'll respond to you with a question: What end do you expect from the "enhancement?" Better grades, leading to a better paying job?

Those a nice goals but it's not life's be-all end-all and not worth the risks of taking those drugs in my opinion. A modest house, with a spouse and family who love you and a decent job where they respect your work and that presents challenges from time to time, doesn't sound all that exciting but can make for a long and happy life.

... sorry if that's a bit preachy.

jrockway2• 17 years ago

Also, IME, nobody has ever asked me for my grades. Even having the piece of paper is less relevant than "real world experience" these days.

If class is boring, find some way to distinguish yourself. (If you can't do that, then you need good grades. If you can't do either, then you picked the wrong field.)

ErrantX• 17 years ago

I used to have the same problems.

I feel though that taking drugs to improve matters is only covering up more crucial factors that lead to this behaviour. Are you bored of the course (my problem).

Are you at uni? or another level of education? At university I eventually realised the course is immaterial - I ignored most of my lectures and scraped through each year because of partying and socialising.I dont regret that and recommend it to everyone - do what's needed and come away with an ok degree. But dont sacrifice the MOST ipmportant part of higher ed (getting out there, meeting people, haveing a good time) just to get a slightly better grade.

I also did an electrical engineering degree (this is a bit scary :o) and found my main problem was a disappointment in the course. There was a lot of content I didnt like (power electronics) despite being on an embedded systems course. Once I addressed that the degree improved but not majorly.

I came out with a 2:1 [mostly due to a corker of a finals thesis which bumbed me up a lot] and certainly could have got a first - but not w/o a lot of work. I think the trade off was worth it threefold or more!

In my case the issues are lot better now I am in the real world working - my job is what I really enjoy doing so I can focus on it. That helps a lot. I also took time to fight my willpower issues - they aint great but I am working on it bit by bit :)

Fix any issues before you consider drugs - something is likely causing the problem (be they course related or not) and you just gotta nail that. :) good luck

jrockway2• 17 years ago

I think you just need to find something interesting to do. Is getting a piece of paper saying you know EE interesting? If not, don't do it. If so, study harder.

Personally, I've found that I can go for days without doing anything useful if I am trying to avoid boring work. I feel really tired and generally run down. The way I combat this is to do something interesting, and let the momentum help me do boring things. (Video games also seem to help, a cup of coffee and an hour of Geometry Wars puts me in a great mood.)

Anyway, if I were going to go on drugs, I would do it in a structured way. Don't medicate yourself, get a doctor. Before you start taking anything, get in the habit of keeping a diary. Write down what you are thinking, how you feel, ideas you have, what you did with the day. Then, start your medication. Keep writing your in journal. If something changes, it should be easy to see. Your drugs might not make you more useful, they might just be lowering your standards. (My friends think they are much more interesting than they actually are when on certain recreational drugs.)

Finally, maybe your standards are just out of whack, and you are imagining things that aren't true. I often feel inadequate, even when I consider that I have written 100+ pieces of software that people actually use (with about 10 maintained at any given time), I've written a book, I write a moderately popular blog, I am invited to give talks around the world, and have high HN and StackOverflow karma. I think we always feel that we can do better, but that's not a medical condition, that's just ambition. You should stop to think about whether you are actually doing as badly as you think you are.

k0n2ad3• 17 years ago

I agree for the most part, but a lot of interesting degree programs contain lots and lots of boring and tedious work, no? :)

fendale• 17 years ago

I would say all drugs have side effects and should be avoided.

If you are always procrastinating on your studies, maybe it's because you just are not very interested in what you are studying? Getting through a 3 or 4 year degree you have little interest in is a very tough task. I have seen very smart friends fail just about every CS exam they took for this very reason - they had no interest, no will power to study and ended up failing.

aarongough4• 17 years ago

My first question would be:

Do you enjoy what you're doing?

I've noticed that most people who complain about having trouble with motivation, willpower and procrastination when it comes to their job (or 'occupation' in the case of a student like yourself) actually hate what they are doing.

If you don't enjoy the things you should be spending your time on then obviously it's going to be hard to get the motivation to do them.

My first point of recourse in this situation would be to examine exactly what your motivations are behind taking this course. Is it because you love it or because your parents told you to, or because you couldn't think of anything else to do? If the answer is anything other than "Because I enjoy it" then you probably need to re-examine your decision.

asciilifeform4• 17 years ago

> If the answer is anything other than "Because I enjoy it" then you probably need to re-examine your decision

Who is going to pay for him to live a life doing only what he enjoys? You?

aarongough4• 17 years ago

Well, if he loves programming and is good at it then I might pay him to do what he enjoys.

No matter what you love, there is almost always a way to make money doing it.

pj• 17 years ago

The thought that everything we do must be enjoyable is the wrong attitude. I think that is the attitude that has gotten us in trouble. There are a lot of things in life that we have to do that we don't enjoy doing. Taking certain pre-requisite courses is an example. I didn't like organic chemistry, but I did like the idea of being a doctor some day, so I had to take Organic Chemistry.

The converse is also true, you can't have something just because you want it. Sometimes you have to work for things. You have to practice and try hard.

The simple fact of the matter is, if you don't have the will power to say, "I will do these hard things I don't like doing because I want these other things later in life." Then you are probably on the wrong course or simply not cut out for it.

We do have to make sacrifices and it sounds like that sacrifice for the OP is going to class, studying the material, and doing well -- even if he doesn't want to take that particular course.

aarongough4• 17 years ago

I don't think that there's anything wrong with wanting to do only the things you enjoy. I would strongly disagree with the idea that doing so has gotten anyone in trouble.

Granted that sometimes the things you enjoy entail doing additional things that you may not enjoy so much, but if you really enjoy what you are doing then mostly you will be able to justify this as part of the big picture.

Personally I think that the idea that we all need to do things that make us money rather than the things we enjoy is what has made a lot of people over the years very unhappy.

Imagine working a job you hate for your entire life because you think, or have been told, that it's all you can do. We live in a society that allows us to surpass squandering our lives this way, we should endeavor to do so whenever we can.

GHFigs2• 17 years ago

I've found that thinking love/hate is not sufficiently granular for most problems and rarely suggestive of many solutions. It can be good for making very high level emotionally charged decisions like whether you want to even stay in school or not, but when it comes to implementing those decisions, you often need to be more specific about your feelings to figure out exactly what needs to change.

There is a chart in Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's classic Flow, that I've found enligtening. It shows the "flow channel", the desirable state where the activity seems friction-free, surrounded by anxiety on one side and boredom on the other. Most people don't think of activities this way, where the goal is a mean rather an an extreme.

I've found that every instance of procrastination or avoidance in my life stems from anxiety or boredom irrespective of things like desire, enjoyment, or willpower, while all of the things I do get done are things that I don't feel much anxiety or boredom about, likewise irrespective of desire, enjoyment or willpower. (Those factors only seem to come into play with planning what to do, not in actually doing them.)

So it follows that the way to get things done is to figure out whether the problem is anxiety or boredom and then do what you can to counterbalance it back towards the flow channel. If you're procrastinating on something because you find it boring, the way to become motivated is to make it more exciting. Add constraints, make it more challenging, tighten deadlines, expand scope, batch repetitive tasks, turn necessary goals into desirable ones, etc. If you're procrastinating on something because it makes you anxious, the way to become motivated is to make it less exciting. Remove constraints, reduce the challenge, loosen deadlines, break up tasks into small pieces, reduce the harm of mistakes, reduce risk, etc.

What that means specifically depends on what bores you or causes anxiety and how much control you have over circumstances, but I think there is always something you can do on a practical and tactical level to bring any activity towards that channel where you don't have to force yourself into doing it.

k0n2ad3• 17 years ago

I've used Adderall, Concerta (Methylphenidate, like Ritalin) and Modafinal when I was in college. Adderall, which I would bum off my friend's prescription, pretty much gave me a rush of focus power and euphoria, which I usually squandered on things that weren't my schoolwork (guitar playing, wikipedia surfing and video games). I then got "diagnosed" with ADHD so I got a prescription to Concerta. Concerta was similar to Adderall, but given that it was sustained release, it lasted longer and worked differently depending on how I ate. I actually crashed really hard on it. I stopped using that after a while and just relied heavily on caffeine, along with learning methods to focus naturally.

Modafinal is an interesting drug. It just makes you feel awake and alert, without feeling like you are tweaked. It saved me when I pulled all nighters. Stayed awake for 3 nights once during finals and it was one of the strangest and most uncomfortable trips I've ever been on - but that's a digression I should save for Erowid.org.

That being said, if you rely on "cognitive enhancers" (I hate the euphemism, more like "speed") now, you may have to rely on them for everything in the future. They don't cure your symptoms, they just mask them. The thing is, focus should come about naturally because you have a passion for something. I believe that you would feel the most success from developing the ability to focus on your own. Did you try exercise? Meditation? Are you simply overloading yourself with too many courses? Are you in the right degree program? Such activities and considerations, though a greater time investment with more room for failure, are healthy ways to get your brain "in the zone" and prepare yourself for future cognitive demands in life.

Or, you can depend on drugs. It's really your choice.

People with "ADHD" have a broad range of symptoms that are conveniently lumped together and treated with various drugs on a trial and error basis. The science of psychology is still greatly in it's infancy. We still have a lot to learn about symptoms such as the inability to focus, hyperactivity, impulsivity and the like. It is highly probable that there is an underlying cause to any or all of these symptoms, one that has been fostered as we were growing up. The whole "chemical imbalance" theory really irks me - there is probably an environmental reason to most of the "chemical imbalances" that we read about, hear about or experience.

Another thing to try is getting a really good therapist (hard to come by) and talking these things out - figuring out on your own. In either case, good luck to you.

maukdaddy• 17 years ago

I'm not trying to sound like an ass - but really?! Why do we (mostly Americans) always want to turn to drugs to solve problems? Too lazy to eat well and exercise - pop a cholesterol drug! Too lazy to motivate yourself and study - pop some "performance enhancing" drug.

Here's an amazing thing I learned in college - there is always someone who is smarter than you. A lot smarter than you. The sooner you learn this, the sooner you can stop worrying so much about getting as much from the lectures as peers, doing as well on tests, etc. You have to learn to be comfortable with your abilities. The even more amazing thing is that you don't have to be the smartest person to do well in life and achieve success.

asciilifeform4• 17 years ago

> Too lazy to eat well and exercise - pop a cholesterol drug! Too lazy to motivate yourself and study...

http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html

lallysingh• 17 years ago

Frankly I'd go after the motivation/procrastination problem. If you're 21/EE, then you're probably hitting close to burnout.

I spent many years of undergrad & grad school drinking to vent stress, but eventually it wasn't doing it for me. I got a motorcycle and I picked up a martial art. I haven't been happier.

Look around for better ways to vent stress, not work better under excess stress. The former's a lot easier and more pleasant than the second.

joel_feather• 17 years ago

Find people to compete against. Start with the bottom of the class.

edw519• 17 years ago

"Naturally, for my convictions, I ran the other way. I myself used to be the one who would vociferously debate against these drugs (on the line that if I'm unhappy, then it's for a reason - something happened to me, a certain natural chain of events... getting at the problem with chemical changes to the body sounds like a terrifically frightening idea..."

You already know the right answer. Stick with your convictions.

I disagree with only one word you said. You would not be "getting at the problem" with chemical changes, you'd be "getting at the effect".

I'm a firm believer in

  If A causes B and B is bad, don't treat B, remove A.

You already know this. Good. Find your A and remove it. Have fun and good luck.

asciilifeform4• 17 years ago

Required reading:

(1) http://radian.org/notebook/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/brain-...

(2) http://yarchive.net/med/nootropics.html

(3) http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html

No. 3 is for understanding why most of the prominent naysayers in the field don't have your best interests in mind. No. 1 and 2 will educate you about what substances are available and what trade-offs their use entails.

avinashv• 17 years ago

Take it from someone who just finished a degree—you sound like you aren't enjoying your major. I entered college as an engineer, and found that after some time, I was in your position. Your lack of motivation might be because you—like me—are underwhelmed at what the program offered you.

Obviously, it's a life-changing decision that shouldn't be taken lightly, but consider moving to something that you're more passionate about. My life changed tremendously (for the better, if that wasn't clear) when I switched to a major that I was more passionate about.

If it helps, I'm no longer an engineer. I initially thought it was just me, then just my college, but now I've spoken to enough people to know that engineering programs aren't generally what a lot of people expect.

barryfandango• 17 years ago

I languished in my computer science degree in much the same way. I graduated with good marks but it was like pulling teeth. I questioned whether I had chosen the correct path.

Now that I'm a programmer in the real world though, I love my job and I've learned more since entering the workforce than I ever did in school. The passion has gone from 2 to 9 and the rest flows from that. Maybe you're just not wired for the college learning format - god knows I wasn't.

charlesju• 17 years ago

For the first three years of college I was in your exact same position. I had no idea how to do well in school, constantly blamed myself for "sucking", and this was a pretty awful downward spiral.

Then on New Year's Eve, approaching my final year in college, I decided to shape up and just suck it up. My GPA for my last year in college was over a whole point higher than my average for the last 3.

This is what I did:

1. Sleep at 11, wake up at 7. 2. Eat on a strict diet. 3. Exercise everyday. 4. Sit in the first row of class. 5. Do your homework in-between classes. Treat school like work, it's a 9-5 job, then you're done. 6. Still party like a rock-star on weekends and selected weekdays.

randallsquared• 17 years ago

If you can achieve your goals without drugs, I'd recommend that. Drugs are rarely precision fixes; taking the drugs we have now is akin to fixing a clock with a hammer: even when it works, something else is probably broken now.

bokonist• 17 years ago

Your brain may be signaling to you that doing well in class is not actually a good use of your time. You should listen to your brain, and figure out goals you actually believe in. The motivation then follows.

donaldc• 17 years ago

I've isolated the problem to be with my will power - I never take initiatives, and I keep procrastinating on doing homework.

Drugs will not fix this problem. You need to improve your willpower and your study habits.

mping• 17 years ago

Dude, the purpose of effort is to gain skills and confidence, not just getting things done. Start small. Progress slowly but steadily.

Taking drugs to solve your problem seems to be a way of solving the symptoms, not the root cause. If you don't want to take drugs for your whole life, you are better off going to the root cause of your lack of will power TODAY.

As for a better way of improving your will power and confidence, I suggest you talk to your friends, go to a doctor, try sports, meditation, play in a band, or do whatever you feel you need to be done. Get some professional advice if you thing it'll make you some good - making a diagnosis over http is not my mojo :) Just make sure you are on the right track.

As a side note, I'm not against drugs. Sometimes you need them in order to get pass some barriers, but I seem them like a kool-aid quick patch instead of a good code base refactor ;)

jonshea• 17 years ago

When it comes to sports I always say that I’d rather have exciting sports than fair sports, and I’d rather have fair sports than clean sports. I’m a fan of pro-cycling, so doping news is in my life a lot. My favorite comments on intelligence doping come from the Becker-Posner blog:

http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2008/03/intellige... http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2008/03/comment_o...

I especially like Posner’s closing paragraph:

Of course the naturally gifted will object to any "artificial" enhancements that enable others to compete with them. But it is not obvious why their objections should be given weight from a public policy standpoint. It is not as if allowing such enhancements would be likely to discourage the naturally gifted from developing and using their gifts (it might have the opposite effect, by creating greater competition for them), let alone discouraging bright people from seeking out other people to marry and produce children by.

GHFigs2• 17 years ago

Habit and conditioning beat willpower and discipline almost all the time. Drugs won't change that at their best, and at their worst they represent a shining example of it.

fburnaby• 17 years ago

I just finished my EE degree. I did well, but it certainly wasn't by getting lots out of lectures (though going to them probably is a good idea).

The trick is to have friends to study with. I always had a hard time focusing on the coursework by myself. It's dry, at least as presented at school. Study with friends, and explore the material with them by coming up with ridiculous possible applications for whatever you're learning.

As a bonus, the friends you make at the library will probably be better to have than the ones you'll make taking drugs. ;)

peripatetic• 17 years ago

I disagree w/ a lot of what is stated here about: "don't cover up the problem" or "get your life in order then try medication."

I got a lot of the same bad advice and I wasted years flagellating myself to try to get my life in order first. Well, turns out that I have a "real" problem. The 2nd or 3rd day on medication it was like, "wow, all those guys that could balance their checkbook, get the essay in on time, etc, and would condescend to me, and tell me i just needed to "buckle down" well, wholly sh8t, if their minds work like this the whole time... well, damnit they were cheating!" medication can improve the tools you need to get your life in order.

so, you need to answer for yourself if you have a "real" problem. if you do, medication could help immensely. For me it probably saved my life.

But, like other comments, its no panacea. if you really have ADD, well you need to work at it too in addition to medication.

Ask HN: Thoughts on performance-enhancing drugs?

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