Student challenges prof, wins right to post source code he wrote for course

http://www.kyle-brady.com/2009/06/10/how-i-won-a-copyfight/

by dlnovell • 17 years ago

118 60 17 years ago

ionfish• 17 years ago

Good for him. It's perverse for the gatekeepers of an institution supposedly dedicated to increasing human knowledge to attempt to restrain its dissemination in this fashion, and it's cheering to see the university backing the student here.

michael_dorfman4• 17 years ago

I think the gatekeepers of the institution feel that human knowledge is not increased when homework answers are published on the web, rendering the assignments obsolete for future instances of the course.

ckinnan• 17 years ago

This seems like a reasonable concern. The situation is akin to publishing test questions and answers.

mileszs• 17 years ago

What is the chance they are doing anything new in a 100 level CS course? Interesting, perhaps, but new? Couldn't one find answers to most of the problems in 4+ languages with a single search? I understand the argument, to an extent, that the student is simply lowering the barrier to cheating, but isn't it he really just lowering it from just above the knee to just below the knee?

It was easy to cheat 8 years ago (from what I remember), it's surely easier to cheat now, and it's certainly not because this one kid stood up for something in which he believes.

dlnovell• 17 years ago

The homework assignments are only rendered obsolete for cheaters... and hopefully the overwhelming majority of the students do their homework because they're trying to learn the material.

Also, after "Intro to X Programming Language", there aren't going to be any trivial assignments and every (or nearly every) solution should be different. At NCSU they had software that would examine all code for assignments to detect people sharing code and trying to make trivial modifications such as changing variable and function names, and changing the order of code. I had quite a few friends get caught by it.

The point of my rant is that some students are going to cheat no matter what. Having the solution posted online isn't going to really change how many people are cheating if it is made clear that the professor will be looking for cheaters.

wallflower• 17 years ago

In the past, having seen sizeable fraternity archives of Physics/Chemistry 101/201 tests, I can attest that professors reuse problems on tests all the time. Even if they change the initial parameters, its the same problem.

lacker• 17 years ago

Professors should already be using new problems in each instance of the class. In particular, frats and other student societies often pass things down, and you don't want to advantage them. Trying to stop people from posting knowledge on the web that is already public is ineffective and unfair.

scott_s• 17 years ago

In every programming intensive course I took as an undergrad CS major, the programming projects were original. The themes are the same (the linked list project, the balanced binary tree project), but the professors came up with original project specs every time.

jrockway2• 17 years ago

How does someone's solution to a problem make the problem obsolete?

I have a friend who was an art student. Every major assignment was put into a public portfolio for future employers (etc.) to look at. This is considered standard for the field. It's also possible that someone else could look at her portfolio, copy her assignment, and turn it in as their own. Despite that, it's still her right to share her creative work with the world.

As programming is just as creative as design, I don't see why programmers should be held to some other standard. We need jobs out of college too, and we are also proud of our work and want to show the world.

If this makes the professor's life harder... well, that's so sad that I'm going to cry.

IsaacL• 17 years ago

Solutions to class assignments don't generally "increase human knowledge". The only people they will be useful to are students looking to cheat.

A lot of people on BoingBoing were saying that the prof should generate a new assignment each time: that's really not realistic (pg mentioned this in on of his essays). I've just finished the first year of a CS degree, and I can see the advantage of having assignments that have been set for multiple years: they're more 'polished' IMO and better able to stretch actual CS skills and not just the production of boilerplate code.

coolnewtoy• 17 years ago

Actually, I really appreciate the assignments and solutions on the Stanford Engineering Everywhere courses. It's probably just as valuable as the lectures.

jsonscripter• 17 years ago

In my program, I had to sign a non-disclosure when doing an assignment for a local tech company. They didn't use anything I made, but I can't share it. It's basically gone for a minimum of 4 years.

I always feel like I've lost a little bit of myself when I lose code or IP I've created, even if I'm paid for my time.

edw5193• 17 years ago

"I always feel like I've lost a little bit of myself..."

You shouldn't. Because you haven't. You are greater that then sum of what you have done. You wrote it once, you can write it again (not exactly the same, of course, but you get the idea).

They can claim your work as their IP, but they can't claim who you have become in the process.

mikedouglas2• 17 years ago

You wrote it once, you can write it again (not exactly the same, of course, but you get the idea).

Can you? That code is now a trade secret for that company, and if you wrote a clone (or compatible version) using your knowledge of the product, that seems like a clear case of infringement.

TallGuyShort• 17 years ago

Aside from the question of publishing source code, I wanted to applaud the author for his observation that students want to do meaningful work. I work as a programmer (and have done so for more than a few years) and am only going to school to "get my degree". Nothing is more frustrating to me than when people who have spent their whole careers in academia correct me on dumb things. I once got marked down because my curly braces were on the same line as the function definition in Java. They said it wasn't "the way it was done in the industry". I learn 10 times more from my job than I ever have at school - their students would be far better off if their projects were more realistic, and if their teachers had real experience.

endtime• 17 years ago

If you've worked as a programmer, then what you have to gain from a CS degree won't be found in introductory programming classes...

edw5193• 17 years ago

"They said it wasn't "the way it was done in the industry". I learn 10 times more from my job than I ever have at school - their students would be far better off if their projects were more realistic, and if their teachers had real experience."

Definitely my experience! And one of the most important comments I've seen on hn in ages. Cut it out and put it on your bulletin board.

As smart people who deal a lot with binaryness (there is a right answer), we place high regard for education, as we should. But please understand that business and academia are 2 different animals with only a little overlap. I have lots of education and lots of practical work experience, and I have to be careful when to apply my formal education, which isn't often.

Classic example (I'm sure many of you have many more):

I graduated Allegheny College with the founders of ijet.com. At an alumni event, they presented their business case and web site. It was very interesting, like many discussions here. At the end, a business professor summed things up. Not a single thing he said made any sense or had anything to do with the presentation. I wondered if he had even watched it. That's when I decided to stop feeling bad about sleeping through all that Cost/Value Curve bullshit so many years ago.

Get your degree. Get your education. But please understand they aren't necessarily the same thing.

{{{{{{Aside: If anyone wants to talk about my curly braces, I give them 2 choices: discuss issues with me or discuss details by themselves.}}}}}}

Nekojoe• 17 years ago

I really related to this comment.

What I do find though is experience at university does vary greatly. I had a fantastic module on Software Quality. The lecturer in question has been working in the real world before he became a lecturer so had many practical examples of software quality, but he was also able to quickly gloss over the irreverent stuff.

I really did enjoy that module, and recommended it to a friend who was a year below me academically at the same university. Unfortunately the lecturer in question left the university before my friend started the module. As a result his experience with the same module was vastly different than mine. The replacement lecturer was very much into mathematics and didn't have the real world experience his predecessor had. As a result a lot of time was wasted on the maths of how to calculate cyclomatic complexity. When I did the course about half an hour to an hour was covered on how to calculate it, when to use, why you'll need it and so on. Plus there was further reading in the lecture handouts. When my friend did it he had to spend about 9 hours running through just the maths. He told me it was very detached from the real world, there wasn't much connection to when you'll use it.

I've had a few good lecturers and a few bad ones too. For me I find the good ones know how to practically apply things.

LogicHoleFlaw• 17 years ago

I wanted to applaud the author for his observation that students want to do meaningful work.

  The pitcher cries for water to carry
  and a person for work that is real.

  -- Marge Piercy, "To be of use"

kingkawn• 17 years ago

The pitcher simply is, while our cries encompass it.

rw2• 17 years ago

I love computer science so much that I refused to take classes in it as an undergrad.

arjunnarayan• 17 years ago

Well, just skip the intro classes. Just dive into the middle of the "major sequence" at the zone you feel is appropriate. I did this. The professor laughed at me when I asked to enroll without the prereq courses, then agreed as long as I didn't whine about anything, and finally recommended me for more advanced electives when I got an A.

Really, if you're going for the "I hate college, OMG its so lame" route, you really need to rethink your stance.

chez172• 17 years ago

I had a good teacher at UVM who took time out of class to discuss this subject one day. He made it crystal clear that as a student, you own everything you code. As a professor, or paid person of the university, that is not necessarily the case. But as a student, what you write is yours. From the other side, I could see how the professor doesn't want people posting code (most likely solutions) online.

dangrover• 17 years ago

I'm considering transferring to UVM for computer science and I was wondering if I could talk to you about your experiences there.

chez172• 17 years ago

Sure, you can contact me at my hackernews username @ gmail.com

robryan• 17 years ago

One of the problems I'm seeing where I go to university is that with budget cut's one of the most effected area's is course preparation. Lecturers aren't getting paid properly to update there courses and as a result are using the same or very similar lecture notes/ assignments and exams for years.

Basically meaning that any innovation in the courses is coming out of the lecturers own time. A pattern emerges in that the young, recently graduated lecturers will put the extra effort in to make there subject good and the older ones by and large will just run what they have been running with for many years.

dxjones• 17 years ago

Outstanding result. Compliments to both the student and the Chair of the CS Dept at SJSU.

Not only was the matter resolved properly, the Chair also managed to stop it from "escalating" until lawyers had to get involved.

Instead, the Chair successfully "hit the pause button", reflected on the issues, got some expert advice, and then communicate the result clearly and definitively, so everyone could close this chapter and move on.

Even for the prof who initially complained about the student posting code, this is a good result. It lets him know how he should update his course in the future, and what limitations on students posting code is reasonable, or not reasonable.

keefe• 17 years ago

I sure hope he doesn't take that guy's class or any of that guy's friend's classes. He may find his work held up to a higher standard... I think the prof was pissed cause the solutions being posted meant he had to do more work. I am all about free speech, but if I were doing my degree there I wouldn't want to antagonize the faculty so much.

jmonegro• 17 years ago

I think that to some extent, the professor might be right. What if I was to take that same course, with the same professor, and got the same assignment.

I could easily browse his source code when I get coder's block.

alexgartrell2• 17 years ago

Let me tell you something about labs. Challenging labs a) are REALLY hard to make and b) ALWAYS suck on the first iteration, ALWAYS. This guy has set back the whole course to the very beginning, because now everything needs to be rewritten. He's a jerk.

No one's impressed by his sophomore-level introductory data structures and algo classes.

And because he posted his code to the public, I have the following comments: his code is poorly commented and kind of crappy. I'm further bothered by the fact that he's a senior-to-be and hasn't done anything substantial yet. Where's the kernel, 1337 freedom of information defender?

jrockway2• 17 years ago

This guy has set back the whole course to the very beginning, because now everything needs to be rewritten.

So? As someone who is not a student there, I could also read the labs and post my take on the code. Information wants to be free.

Anyway, my advice would have been to take down the code when asked. Wait a week (until grades are published), then put the code back up. By that time, everyone will have forgotten. (People are very, very lazy.)

I'm further bothered by the fact that he's a senior-to-be and hasn't done anything substantial yet. Where's the kernel, 1337 freedom of information defender?

I don't think undergrads ever do anything substantial (as part of their official coursework, that is). So I would not fault this guy for that, that is a problem with the system in general.

alexgartrell2• 17 years ago

Professors can fail students at any point between starting the class and graduation. Piss one off bad enough and he'll change your grade.

True on the lazy part though.

At the risk of being that guy, at _my_ school, many undergrad CS majors write an honest-to-god ground up Kernel. So, from scratch to able to boot on x86 hardware and run multiple different programs and everything. Arguably substantial.

philwelch• 17 years ago

"I don't think undergrads ever do anything substantial (as part of their official coursework, that is)."

Really? I've heard of:

-Systems programming: Implement ext2.

-Operating systems: Write a kernel.

-Compilers: Write a compiler for a C-like language.

and that's at my school alone. Though 2 of those are senior level classes, systems is a junior level class.

I just assumed that's how CS was done everywhere. Want to learn about (foo)s? Write a foo!

gchpaco• 17 years ago

A lot of folks seem to believe that this fundamentally screws over the professor. If it does, he's an idiot, and I speak as someone intimately involved with all this before.

There are basically three kinds of CS assignments. The first is the moral equivalent of algebra problems, where you change the parameters every year if you care. These were boring to give, boring to solve, but very easy to grade.

The second is "write an implementation of X" for X ranging over things like binary trees, etc. In these cases there is one correct answer that the TA is looking for and it is already in the book. No creativity is necessary. Simple copy/paste detection will catch obvious cheaters, and anybody who modifies this guy's code enough to be non-obvious has just performed as much work, if not more, than was needed to do the assignment in the first place.

The third assignment requires creativity, and here if two students solve the problem in the same way you can usually be sure they colluded. Most of these can be trivially changed, but they're a bitch to grade (although my favorite problems on both sides of the aisle, they're very time consuming) and so are not favored by lazy profs.

johnnybgoode• 17 years ago

Congratulations to Kyle for violating the spirit of the modern university by going up against faculty. ;)

pageman• 17 years ago

I actually encourage my students to POST all of their WORK under a by-nc-sa Creative Commons license so that other people/students can build on their work - it's actually EASIER to check for plagiarism when their work is online - I just Google it and it will flag if they are copying verbatim.

hs• 17 years ago

university is an extension of high-school-as-prison system, except that it's very big that one doesn't feel in one (maybe because one pays for the delusion^W priviledge of 'freedom')

gurtwo• 17 years ago

Isn't Computer Science a complex enough subject for the teacher to be able to write new problem sets every semester? Isn't he just being lazy by trying to reuse his problems over and over?

Student challenges prof, wins right to post source code he wrote for course

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