Lavabit needs your help to fight for the right to keep emails private

https://rally.org/lavabit

by rebelidealist • 13 years ago

505 118 13 years ago

rally.org

mnml_2• 13 years ago

Lavabit didn't even bother refunding clients, why should we help them now ?

fennecfoxen3• 13 years ago

I dunno; an ongoing interest in freedom or something like that?

gregd• 13 years ago

Can you link me to any examples of customers who didn't get any refunds? I'm only finding overwhelming support for his shutdown from previous customers...

prg318• 13 years ago

I did not receive a refund for my lavabit service that was interrupted, but after seeing the situation I really did not mind (I may not have received a prorated $3 of my $8 yearly subscription fee - I think there are much bigger issues at stake here). The lavabit shutdown is even more of a reason to give a privacy-respecting company support. Godspeed lavabit!

mnml_2• 13 years ago

I did not get my refund.

tkellogg• 13 years ago

Because constitutional protection and human rights are greater causes than the few bucks you lost. Lavabit didn't have to shut down, they could have handed over your private emails, but they didn't. I'd say they've more than earned what you paid.

Anonmattymous• 13 years ago

Saying that handing over money to them somehow = human rights isn't much better than the people who say that PRISM = protection. Just because LavaBit's shtick and rallying cry is around freedom doesn't mean that they aren't a crap company or that they are telling the whole truth about what has gone down. For all we know the founder is just some wacky libertarian taking an opportunity to give the gov some bad press.

danielweber2• 13 years ago

There's no part of "constitutional protection and human rights" that forbade them from refunding customers' money for a service the customers paid for that they then stopped offering.

(NB: I have no idea if they did/did not refund any money; I'm taking it as a given for this comment but I'm completely relying on the comment chain for the unverified story.)

wissler• 13 years ago

Why should lavabit be on the hook? Their operations were destroyed by a rogue government agency, ergo that agency should be on the hook.

kamjam2• 13 years ago

Could the same be said for MegaUpload? (Although we know it's a totally different story with them...)

dingaling2• 13 years ago

The contents of e-mail hosted by third parties will always be subject to legal demand.

Even if Mr Levinson wins his action against NSLs, that will remain true. Non-NSL warrants conform to the Constitutional protections and will continue to be served and fulfilled.

devx• 13 years ago

Probably, but it would still be a huge win, if we could make it so they could only get e-mails with a normal warrant, from a normal Court (none of that secret courts/"millions of records-are-relevant nonsense).

Also, I don't know if it's currently "legal" or not to demand companies to keep encryption keys of what they're encrypting, but I'm pretty sure it's unconstitutional. So encrypting communications end to end should be constitutional/legal. The companies can still do that (if they have the will/customer pressure).

As for coerced backdoors, like they tried with Lavabit, that's just disgustingly immoral, and definitely unconstitutional.

danielweber2• 13 years ago

if we could make it so they could only get e-mails with a normal warrant, from a normal Court

That is probably a legislative challenge, not a legal challenge. Is he setting up a PAC?

dingaling2• 13 years ago

I agree it would be a monumental victory against secret demands, but if a non-sysadmin layman read that rally.org page he might believe that the result that all e-mails would be 'safe' forever.

You make an interesting point about encryption keys; it is unconstitutional to demand that an individual hand-over his keys in a speculative manner, but is not considered self-incrimination if the prosecutor knows that the relevant document is encrypted. for example, if the individual boasts that 'The Man can't read my encrypted tax evasion plan'.

But I have no idea how that reads-across to a corporation.

fennecfoxen3• 13 years ago

Oh, come now. It's not as simple as that and you know it (or you should know it). The Lavabit design - its entire premise -was that the service stored all the emails in an encrypted form that even Lavabit couldn't access. It was especially constructed that way to be different from other services, at the cost of considerable time and expense. The Lavabit threat is universally considered to be a government order to (in essence) stop running the service that way. This is different from previous government demands in which Lavabit did turn over information which they had.

So the question is: should encrypted-hosting service designs be illegal unless they have a backdoor for the government and the service provider to get in?

betterunix8• 13 years ago

It is as simple as that. If you are not encrypting your email locally you are relying on the service provider to be honest. Claiming that Lavabit could not access your email is silly; Lavabit could easily access it, at the very least when you next log in (presumably this is why the service was shut down). There is no meaningful difference between Lavabit's design and Hushmail's design, and both services had responded to previous government requests.

If you want private email, you need to encrypt locally before the message is sent and decrypt locally after the message is received -- end of story.

ds92• 13 years ago

I wish I could mod up because fennecfoxen has succinctly stated the crucial point.

We really don't even need the NSA shut down, or for it to stop the mass surveillance, in order to have secure and confidential communications. Mass wiretapping is evil but it is not such a threat as long as we are legally and practically free to work around it.

The latter freedom is what the government is now attacking. Th US currently has no statute prohibiting "encrypted-hosting service designs [without] a backdoor for the government and the service provider", nor is there any statute commanding individual 'A' to enable the government to cryptographically impersonate 'A' online to deceive 'B'. But now, the USG has practically effected these policies by secret orders approved only by secret courts, with threats of prison for even revealing the existence of such orders, and preventing the subjects from challenging the legal basis in public courts according to Constitutional principles.

This really has profound implications. Do you have a right to run software of your own choice on your own server, to provide a service that enables the fundamental human right to confidential communications? This is an important measure of the descent into fascism, totalitarianism, police state, or whatever you want to call it, and further trashing of the rule of law.

fsckin• 13 years ago

What if your email host was also your 'attorney'?

gknoy• 13 years ago

Or your spouse?

tedunangst• 13 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privile...

ladar8• 13 years ago

The question is whether our government can access the private data of people not involved in an investigation and whether companies can be forced to surrender their own sensitive info... or be forced to help subvert the security of their own products and services.

pvnick• 13 years ago

Just gave $25, I hope to see Mr. Levinson succeed! It would definitely be a very meaningful symbolic victory against the surveillance state.

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

I'm willing to contribute but I'm interested in details before doing so. I'm aware that lavabit obviously can't go into details of what they're fighting against, but some breakdown on what the money will be used for would be nice - is it all for lawyer fees or does it cover other costs? How far is the sum expected to reach, will the 40k be enough to fight until the last round or will we get another fundraiser in a year? What happens to any money that's not being used up for the defense?

matthuggins• 13 years ago

Yeah, there is basically zero info on where the money is going, I don't know how people (especially people unfamiliar with Lavabit) are going to be encouraged to contribute.

ladar8• 13 years ago

The lawyers setup a non profit and applied for status as a 501c3. All the donations are going towards legal expenses and any related travel...the team is spread out between San Francisco, NYC, DC and of course myself in Dallas.

bgentry• 13 years ago

The Rally.org page doesn't mention that this is a 501c3. Some of us would be able to get our donations matched if that was the case, not to mention tax-deductibility.

Is that an oversight, or is it just because the 501c3 has not been finalized yet?

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

So who are we actually (legally) donating to: You personally, lavabit as a company or the nonprofit? What does legal expenses include: are the lawyers paid full wages or are they working pro bono or at a discounted rate? Please note that I'm totally fine with all people involved being paid, they do have to earn a living. It might influence the amount of money I'm willing to give though.

clamprecht• 13 years ago

Just gave $200. Thank you for fighting man. I've fought the feds, I know it's tough.

Consider accepting bitcoins, if you don't already. (I didn't see a bitcoin address on the rally.org page).

ladar8• 13 years ago

It's looking like the district court appeal is going to cost between 70k and 100k. I'll need to raise allot more if the fight goes onto the supreme court. I'm told a typical supreme court case will cost 250k and up...

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

So is the 40k in the petition just the missing amount for the district court appeal - meaning that another party will cover the gap to 100k - or is that just what you thought was possible on rally.org? Is there any estimate what the chances are that the case will end at district court level?

windexh8er• 13 years ago

The question you should ask yourself is who you trust more. If it's the NSA then there's no basis for donating. Lavabit was trusted by many, I will trust them in this effort.

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

It's not about trust. It's about whether I believe that this is a good investment of money or whether I feel that donating to another entity is a better choice. There's many fights to be fought and so little money to go around. I trust them that they have only the best intentions, but what happens if they don't collect enough funds to go all the way? Did anybody win anything if they have to fold midways because money ran out? 40k wasted that could have been used somewhere else?

Aaronontheweb• 13 years ago

I just donated $50 - to be honest, most of the stuff in your post is useless minutiae. I don't care how many dollars go to lawyer's fees versus court fees versus blah blah.

What I do care about though - how far in the appeals process will this take the case? Answer: $40,000 is not even 1/10th of what you'd need to make it to the supreme court, paying full freight. So assume there's going to be another fund raiser.

Should we just walk away from an opportunity to expose the demands of the FISA court in broad daylight at the behest of a superior court because they didn't present an itemized budget and an exact timetable dependent on a bunch of external circumstances beyond their control? Uhh, no - drop $5 and move on.

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

See, I care about where I donate my money to. If 40k is 1/10th of what's needed this fundraiser may be just wasted money - I could be better of donating the money to EFF directlyr. If the entity behind the fundraiser is lavabit, the US government could just shut down the company and freeze the funds, again wasted money. I'm not asking for an itemized list or a timetable, I'm just asking for a little information that goes beyond "we'll try and sue and we need money". I'm not assuming bad faith, but is that too much to ask for if somebody tries to collect north of 40k on the internet?

znowi• 13 years ago

I understand your inner skeptic, but seriously, this investigative zeal might have been more appropriate elsewhere.

The guy could have easily folded, like hundreds of other companies, without a word. Instead, he shut down the service to protect its users. I would have given him $30k just for that as a bonus for being awesome.

He's a damn hero if you ask me. Along with Aaron and Snowden. They are a few and deserve every support we can give them. Even if they buy a pack of beer with fund money.

rmc2• 13 years ago

Is it only "the American people" who this person wants emails to be private? That's what they're title says, and they talk about the US Constitution whose privacy restrictions only apply to US citizens (AFAIR). Go beyond the fourth amendment.

bennyg• 13 years ago

Clever marketing to pull at heartstrings. Of course they want email everywhere to be private.

stekoz• 13 years ago

And yet he makes a point of being able to run an American company.

ladar8• 13 years ago

Personally I think bulk collection is wrong regardless of where a person is, or what passport they carry. But the constitution only protects our right to privacy on American soil...

Since Lavabit operates in the US and we can't tell which of our users is an American, and which are foreign, I'm of the opinion they all have the same rights.

rmc2• 13 years ago

Personally I think bulk collection is wrong regardless of where a person is, or what passport they carry.

I agree.

But the [US] constitution only protects our right to privacy on American soil...

I know. ☹

sliverstorm• 13 years ago

I forget the exact slogans from wartimes past, but you can't win on the battle front until you've won the home front.

olleicua• 13 years ago

What does lavabit actually do?

ufo• 13 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

sethbannon• 13 years ago

134 upvotes but only 34 contributors. If you truly support privacy rights, please support those fighting for them. Donate.

darkchasma• 13 years ago

I support the cause, as I believe all people should have the right to privacy. However, I'm not American, and we have our own battles. Increasing awareness and visibility however, is something we all can do.

wazoox• 13 years ago

It asks me to log in with Facebook (oh, the irony). I don't have an FB account, and I suppose I'm not alone among the potential supporters.

bdg4• 13 years ago

Super. I'll just neatly put my name next to a list of people (which the NSA has connected to) who oppose the surveillance state ... and hope I don't get black bagged to your fancy Cuban torture prisons if I ever cross into the USA.

oth3r• 13 years ago

You're not required to use Facebook to donate. I just signed up and donated without using Facebook at all.

mattermill• 13 years ago

I wasn't required to login with Facebook. It allowed me to donate anonymously.

mkr-hn• 13 years ago

In marketing terms, 25% [1] is a great conversion rate for something with non-obvious and far off benefits.

[1] Probably closer to an ordinary 5-15% once page views are factored in

ewillbefull• 13 years ago

I would happily donate bitcoins.

oscardelben2• 13 years ago

One thing that really puts me off is the emphasis on protecting privacy for american people. Why should privacy be a luxury of people who just happened to be born in a particular piece of land? Why is it ok to spy on everyone else?

Xylakant6• 13 years ago

Easy enough: only american people (or people in america) enjoy the legal protection of the american constitution. So the only fight that can be fought here is for americans. You'll need to convince your own government to fight for your rights.

please note: IANAL, but that's what I gathered so far.

drivingmenuts• 13 years ago

If you have issues with privacy in your own country, take it up with your government. The US Constitution only guarantees rights to US citizens.

diminoten• 13 years ago

How am I to know if Lavabit is actually supporting privacy rights in its court case?

asdbkasjdhjka• 13 years ago

Yeah. Fund this project, not some silly thing on Kickstarter.

jhh• 13 years ago

I would contribute if I didn't need to give out my credit card details. I wish that they supported paypal or payment via amazon.

gr3yh472• 13 years ago

lavabit.com has a paypal donate link

tehwalrus• 13 years ago

I had just paid for a years subscription when they shut down - I had signed up because they cared about privacy, and boy was I not disappointed.

Join me in donating (even/especially you other non-US citizen HN'ers), to prove PRISM et al unconstitutional, and preserve all our rights!

asn0• 13 years ago

How do I contribute using Paypal or a CC#, without having to give rally.org all my personal info?

ladar8• 13 years ago

Their is a Paypal donation link on lavabit.com...

fnordfnordfnord• 13 years ago

I sent a few bucks his way a month or so ago, but it was returned to me.

gr3yh472• 13 years ago

He should contact the ACLU + EFF instead of asking for donations.

But hey maybe the donations will help too

joshlegs• 13 years ago

What if you filed for bankruptcy, and your emails to your lawyer became public, humiliating your family?

bankruptcies are public anyway.

Zoepfli• 13 years ago

"Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the American people."

What about the privacy rights of the 95% of the world's population that are not American people?

l33tbro• 13 years ago

I'm trying to get in contact with Ladar or somebody from Lavabit about fundraising. Does anyone know the best way to conact him?

rocky1138• 13 years ago

"Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the American people."

What about the rest of us?

mukundmr• 13 years ago

Why spend all that effort in restarting Lavabit as an American firm? There is plenty of room outside of the US for running a secure email firm.

prirun• 13 years ago

From whois lavabit.com, ie, already public info:

Domain Name:LAVABIT.ORG Created On:21-Jul-2005 21:45:20 UTC Registrant Name:Ladar Levison Registrant Organization:Lavabit LLC Registrant Street1:3930 McKinney Ave #576 Registrant City:Dallas Registrant State/Province:Texas Registrant Postal Code:75204 Registrant Country:US

Mail him a check if you want to help and don't want to use electronic means. Sure, it could in theory be a scam or waste of money. But we KNOW the NSA is a scam, a waste of money, and a danger to our values.

Personally, I trust him. I received a hand-written note thanking me for a donation. Good luck Ladar!

sdoering• 13 years ago

What strikes me odd is the notion, that I as a foreigner do not have any rights and nearly nobody in your country seems to care (at least so it seems to me).

Even the Lavabit-Founder just wants to fight for the "rights of the American people".

Don't the American people get it, that what this form of Chauvinism really brings is bringing the world up against your country? Until America recognizes, that it is not the pride of creation, this sentiment will only grow and Americans worldwide will be regarded critically.

With every politician, that promotes this chauvinism, being elected, everyone in the US is seen once more as a supporter of these views. Not the best idea in the long term I fear.

Lavabit needs your help to fight for the right to keep emails private

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