Houston Yelp reviews include the word "racist" 4 times more often than average

http://saikatbhadra.tumblr.com/post/61022451078/yelp-does-houston-have-the-most-racist-nightlife-out

by slykat • 13 years ago

44 55 13 years ago

saikatbhadra.tumblr.com

cobrausn2• 13 years ago

You didn't find racism, you found accusations of racism made on the internet. The difference is enough to make me think the title should be different.

A larger number of accusations of racism might indicate a problem, but there is no way to get there from just the data available on yelp.

Disclaimer: Live in Houston. Not super-attached, but figured we may as well get that out there.

denzil_correa• 13 years ago

You didn't find racism

FWIW, the author never claims he did.

cobrausn2• 13 years ago

The title originally said something like 'How I Found Racism Using Yelp', which I thought was inaccurate. The linked article was clear about the distinction.

drone• 13 years ago

Actually, yes, read the previous blog post that this one is a follow-up to.

As a long-time resident of Houston, he's tied himself into a well-known issue that's been talked about for some time [1][2][3]. (Heck, he probably linked a bunch of these in the previous article.)

The point he's left out -- nearly every specific incident that's been discussed has revolved around a specific set of bars, that are, umm, largely seen as catering to the "bro" community. (I guess that's how you could call it.) There are a lot of popular bars/clubs outside of the area of these specific bars/clubs that have never been known to be racist. Note how nearly every bar he references in his data is within a mile or two of each other.

I think the implied extrapolation out to all of Houston is a big stretch, and certainly doesn't follow my experience having lived here for nearly 20 years. But then again, I'm not looking for examples of racism. I'm certain they're easy to come across on all sides of the issue (black on white, white on black, black on brown, white on brown, and so forth) if you were to go looking.

[1] http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2011/01/racism_and_houst... [2] http://www.yelp.com/topic/houston-racism-and-profiling-at-cl... [3] http://houston.culturemap.com/news/sports/02-11-12-15-44-new...

justin664• 13 years ago

A larger number of accusations of racism might indicate a problem, but there is no way to get there from just the data available on yelp.

Is it sample size you're concerned with or do you have some sort of existential problem with relying on the veracity of these sorts of reviews?

I don't actually know how many negative reviews of this sort it would take to keep me out of a place. I'm not a habitual yelp user (and I'm white, although I would happily boycott a place where this sort of thing takes place) and so I've never had to consider this. It wouldn't take more than one such report from a real-life acquaintance, however.

slykat5• 13 years ago

FYI the sample size for Houston ~25K comments left on businesses categorized as bars or clubs. The entire sample set (across all cities) is >1M.

slykat5• 13 years ago

I think the bigger question is why does Houston look so different when you compare to other cities? Yes, I can't tie it to incidents of racism, but something must be driving the fact that the term occurs dramatically higher than any of the large cities.

Disclaimer: I was born and raised in Houston.

karlkatzke• 13 years ago

I'm not sure. I lived in Houston for three years and we left because of the crime in the part of town that we lived in. We could have moved to a "safer" area, but it was "safer" because it was a socioeconomic monoculture with defined borders and a private police force, not because it was actually safe. We chose just to move to a different city rather than embody "white flight"...

In the part of town that I lived in, which was the Energy Corridor along I-10 between Beltway 8 and George Bush Park, racial tension was pretty harsh. You had haves and have-nots. Most of the have-nots were notably of one culture or another (depending on which block you were on), and they were pretty merciless about taking advantage of the haves, which were also a monoculture based on the area.

Houston was the first place I've had my car broken into repeatedly, to the point that I started leaving the doors unlocked and the windows rolled down regardless of weather. (A plastic seat cover is cheaper than new windows.) Houston was the first place that I've been very happy that I owned dogs, and considered owning a gun. I grew up not locking doors; Houston made me form a routine of checking doors, security bars, deadlocks, door blocks, and window locks and setting the alarm before bed. The Energy Corridor was NOT cheap to live in, and we rented a modest sized house. That part of town has 1980s era architecture where few, if any, windows face the street. I grew up with block parties and knowing your neighbors and talking at the mailbox. Everyone in my neighborhood in Houston, regardless of color, rolled right into the garage and the door came down.

I don't know why it's that way, but I suspect it was that cultures self-segregate instead of mix. Personally, I hope to never need to find out, because I'm not coming back, even to visit.

angersock5• 13 years ago

Houston is pretty much the perfect example of the once-touted multiethnic future of the US. We've got a large number of people, a large diversity of socioecoethnic backgrounds, and we are a much more integrated city due to lack of zoning and only relatively recent gentrification.

Additionally, note that there was an (arguably recent) influx of folks from New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina--that had lasting economic and demographic impacts on large parts of Houston, especially around Reliant.

zoner• 13 years ago

You found not racism, but ranting caused by frustration as you are writing it in your blog.

Clean, pure racism can be found not in the crowd and not in any pub, but in silent people's mind.

It does not hurt, it does not rant. It will only silently kill when it sense it's family in danger. A danger which is coming from a different culture. You can call it racism, but it remains natural instinct of subsistence.

rthomas6• 13 years ago

I call that xenophobia.

bilbo0s4• 13 years ago

Agree.

That's different than "racism".

w1ntermute• 13 years ago

It will only silently kill when it sense it's family in danger.

Or when oneself is in danger, in the case of Zimmerman.

sixbrx• 13 years ago

It's assuming a lot to say that that was racism killing, it's more a guy killing - who in your own words was "in danger". Justified or not.

irahul• 13 years ago

Oh for fuck's sake...

BigChiefSmokem• 13 years ago

Everything is bigger in Texas.

slykat5• 13 years ago

I think that's unfair given that there are 3 cities (Dallas, San Antonio, Austin), that didn't show the same frequency of using the term.

angersock5• 13 years ago

Houston is a far, far more diverse and integrated city than those other ones, I venture.

crummy• 13 years ago

One thing I'd note is that a potential city that is very racist but with a racially homogeneous population probably would have few reviews that include the word "racist" on Yelp.

slykat5• 13 years ago

That's a vey good point (and a key weakness in this analysis). However, a counter-point is that a racially homogenous population probably will have a lower incidence of racist issues since by definition their minority population is low, and the aim of this was try to gauge a metric for prevalence of racist issues.

joonix• 13 years ago

Nightclubs in Houston try to keep minorities out because white people will call a place "ghetto" if it has a lot of blacks or Hispanics. It's not hard to figure out. Growing up in Houston I saw countless venues quickly disappear as soon as word spread that they were "ghetto." What basically happens is the young white women feel uncomfortable around "ghetto" men, so they go elsewhere. Young men go where the young women are.

You can blame the patrons, not the owners. The owners are behaving rationally, sadly.

justin664• 13 years ago

You can blame the patrons, not the owners. The owners are behaving rationally, sadly.

I understand what you're saying but if what you're describing is correct, you can blame the owners for not complying with federal law.

slykat5• 13 years ago

Yep, this is illegal. From an article in the Houston Press( http://www.houstonpress.com/2011-02-10/news/getting-past-the...)

Although they are private businesses, in the eyes of the law — specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964 — bars and nightclubs are "public accommodations" like hotels, restaurants and movie theaters, and thus forbidden to discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Private clubs, institutions such as country clubs that are selective in membership and only open to members, are generally exempt.

However, "Even if you have a doorman, a bar is more like a restaurant than a country club," says Dale Ho, Assistant Counsel for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in New York City. "So, generally speaking, a bar that treats patrons differently on the basis of race is in violation of federal law."

jofer• 13 years ago

This is sadly true. I currently live in Houston, and I've seen it first-hand. Bouncers will more-or-less throw out anyone who isn't white. (I avoid those places, but I live near several of them (midtown) and I've seen it happen several times.)

It's not limited to Houston, however. Tuscaloosa (Alabama) had several bars with similar policies. There it was a "dress code" (basically business casual--in a college-targeted bar) that was only enforced if you weren't white.

The rest of the country has plenty of racism as well, but it's much more blatant in the south.

wahsd• 13 years ago

Could it be that the patrons are acting ghetto, which begets the venue the ghetto moniker? I don't doubt that there is some racism going on, because racism is still coursing through our veins, but certain behaviors make "white women" feel uncomfortable and unsafe, just as much as they make many other people feel that way. The whole problem is a rather reflexive and self-fulfilling one.

steveklabnik2• 13 years ago

Since "acting ghetto" is code for "being black," yes, they most certainly would be.

This kind of stuff happens all over in this country: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-sues-lucky-strike-l... and http://chicagoist.com/2010/10/14/foodie_rant_-_sometimes_dre... being two examples I remember.

bilbo0s4• 13 years ago

That's EXACTLY right... Houston is all about what I would call "Rationality".

It cuts the other way as well.

I live in Houston.

I'm one of the pricks driving all of the prices up inside the 610. I live behind the gates you see when you drive down Sunset.

Recently, I went to lunch with an acquaintance who is black. We went to a pretty nice place in Third Ward, where we met up with his friends. Being the frank [person] that I am, I professed to surprise that there would be such an upscale restaurant in Third Ward. (It had prices to match.) At which point they explained to me that it's common knowledge that if black people go out to eat in Houston, they should do so in Third Ward. So as to avoid... let's just say... "added ingredients" in their meals.

What struck me as I contemplated the conversation on the way home from lunch... was that very intelligent and successful blacks believed that the integrity of their food would be compromised if they did not eat in Third Ward. Now I realize that the reality is that this belief probably has a good basis in fact, so I completely understand their tendency to eat at restaurants with open kitchens, or at restaurants in Third Ward.

And that was the rub, there IS a sort of self-segregation that was going on... but it's all based on decisions that are completely rational for the individual. In the single case of black eating habits for instance, if a few knuckleheads in Houston are more likely than they are in other cities to ... say ... add bodily fluids to the food of black patrons... then blacks will tend to eat at their own restaurants.

Are the restaurants racist? Not really. They just happened to hire a nugget head. Probably, quite unknowingly.

Are the blacks racist? Not really. They just don't want to eat food that is potentially contaminated with bodily fluids. Quite understandably.

So everyone can act in an honest, forthright, and rational manner... and the results can still seem pretty ugly.

I know Houston pretty well... and I think that is the sort of thing that is coming out in these Yelp reviews. The ugly ways that race and rationality intersect in an economy or society.

lambda3• 13 years ago

So everyone can act in an honest, forthright, and rational manner... and the results can still seem pretty ugly

Sorry, what? "Everyone can act in an honest, forthright, and rational way"?

The people adding "added ingredients" to their meals are acting in an honest, forthright, and rational way?

This isn't "rationality", it's acting like a racist asshole.

Now, it's not surprising if black people avoid places that have a bunch of racist assholes. But that doesn't mean that what's going on is self-segregation; that's overt, racist segregation on the part of the knuckleheads who are spitting in their food.

I'm really having a hard time following what you're trying to say, because it feels like you're trying to say "well, that's what happens when everyone acts rationally", and I'm not really seeing that, I'm seeing a lot of people acting in a racist manner.

justin664• 13 years ago

Are the restaurants racist? Not really. They just happened to hire a nugget head. Probably, quite unknowingly.
Are the blacks racist? Not really. They just don't want to eat food that is potentially contaminated with bodily fluids. Quite understandably.

Weird phrasing at best. Under no set of circumstances would it be valid to characterize the blacks you describe as "racist." Unless you've really, really internalized the Romney "corporations are people, my friend" thing, discriminating against a restaurant cannot be racist.

hieronymusN4• 13 years ago

I'm going to back this up in so much as I have seen this happen in Houston, as far back as the early 90s. A bar will open, perhaps their DJ spins hip-hop, and a primarily African American clientele "discovers" the place. Management freaks out and either cracks down on the door policy or bans hip-hop so that portion of the clientele doesn't come back.

It sucks, and it is wrong.

Also, this is not every bar or club in the city. There are a lot of spots with a multi-racial clientele in Houston that have been rolling along for years (some of my friends bartend at them), but if you're into the "high end" clubs/lounges and that sort of thing then you will definitely run into this crap. But then, I've always thought of those places as pretty low class.

lambda3• 13 years ago

You can blame the patrons, not the owners. The owners are behaving rationally, sadly.

You can blame both, in fact. The owners don't get a free pass on having a racist door policy just because a few patrons are racist as well.

If you want to keep the club from being "ghetto", then have a dress code, and turn away anyone, white, black, Hispanic, or other, who doesn't meet the dress code, and let in anyone who meets the dress code and is not obviously disruptive (belligerent, drunk, etc). Be very clear with bouncers that it's not OK to apply such dress codes differently based on someone's race.

I'm sorry, but if a patron is going to leave because a black person is going to come in, they aren't a customer worth having. If they're worried about the customers just going to another club, they should get together with the other clubs and agree to universally adopt a "no racist bouncer" rule, spelling out what kinds of rules and dress codes are acceptable and what kind are not.

antihero• 13 years ago

This is a free market issue that would be solved with regulation - in their eyes, keeping out black people gives the club a higher chance of success. In order for one club to stop being racist, all of them have to so white patrons just have to deal with being around (shock horror) black people. It just takes one to waive from this policy, and there isn't a huge amount of motivation to stick to it. So, govm't has to stick it's nose in and make sure bouncers aren't being racist (fairly easy, just send sober black people in who are 100% conforming to the dress code and see if they get refused), and fine them massively if they are guilty, thus de-incentivising racism. Eventually, patrons will grow up and get used to the "scary" blacks and score one for equality.

static_typed• 13 years ago

The danger is that real racism, which is a scurge we should all fight against ends up being lost in a sea of complaints, accusations and suggestions of racism.

The reality is that there are a few vocal people with might powerful shoulders out there, well, the shoulders should be strong for the size of the chip they seem to carry on it, and their complaining tends to drown out the quieter voices of those who do actually suffer.

codygman• 13 years ago

For those trying to say this proves nothing... I'd say this review proves it:

"She knows the door guys, owner, DJ, everyone. She had a reserved spot for 25-30 people. As soon as the party kicked off, the trouble started. Every person in her party that tried to get in, that wasn't white, was stopped at the door."

Combined with the profile history and look of it, it seems Ashlee M is a real person. Also according to those here claiming they live in Houston, it's very believable and (logical, yet immoral and illegal) that this is happening.

Given all the evidence here I'd be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that my girlfriend (who is black) and I would be turned away from vintage.

diminoten• 13 years ago

A club would last about three seconds if they did this in my hometown, Washington, D.C. It's just plain not realistic here.

There are certainly bars patronized mostly by black men and women, however I doubt they'd disallow a white person entry. In that way I suppose a certain self-segregation exists, but it's not like black people aren't going to every bar in the city, just like white people. It's not really an issue I'm aware of here. Maybe this is just a Huston thing?

trustfundbaby• 13 years ago

I live in Austin, came of age there and despite having a lot of Friends in Houston, I didn't really start trying to hit up the nightlife there till I was well out of college. Even then I didn't actually have any problems till I started trying to get into the bars and clubs that were more ... shall we say ... "white" (close to Rice, Washington Ave etc)

I point out being from Austin, because over here, clubs don't even charge cover, you just walk in and out of whatever club or bar you want. So going to Houston, it took me a while to realize that all the time we spent waiting in line, or that getting turned away from clubs for having "torn jeans" or jeans that were too baggy was actually racist nonsense.

In one particular incident I will never forget, my buddy and I were trying to get into a club called Drake, when it first opened (its now a "black" club, which is pretty ironic) but at the time we showed up pretty early (by Texas standards) ie about 11pm so that we could avoid any hassles with the bouncer ... but we got told to wait ... so we waited ... and waited and waited ...

People would line up behind us, and then after about 10 minutes, disappear, and then they'd get into a "VIP" line and be whisked in. It was a fairly upscale crowd, and we were still young-ish so we just figured we just didn't have the pull those people did, one particular girl and her posse came in chatted with us and got in through VIP (this is significant for later) ... After waiting about an hour, we decided to leave so we could get in elsewhere before we blew the night (clubs close at 2am) ... on our way out, we bumped into the "friendly" girl who was also leaving after being in there for about 15 minutes ... and after a few pleasantries she asked us why it had taken that long for us to leave ...

we looked at each other for a bit, confused and then she said "you really didn't know they don't let black people in that club?"

She was white.

So yeah, I don't party in Houston, or if I do, I stick to "black clubs". Its a shame really, but I know Houston pretty well and I think the explanation for this (apart from good ol' fashioned Texas racism) is that its so big. Its easy to find people like you there, so people form groups and simply don't mix, which makes more sense once you factor in the racism. In Austin for example, the same dynamics are there, but everybody just has to party together because its so small ... but as the population has grown bigger, racist incidents have been on the uptick. As in ... an Asian lady called me and another lady friend of mine the n-word to our faces just a few weeks ago (we were literally just standing around ordering food, and she stumbled up to the food-truck half-drunk, spotted us and went "uh oh ... ns" ... I kid you not). That hasn't happened to me in Austin in almost 10 years ... I think

Thats just how Texas is, which is a fucking shame.

Houston Yelp reviews include the word "racist" 4 times more often than average

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