Snowden releases information about Australian Intelligence gathering programs

http://www.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

by SomeoneWeird • 13 years ago

245 96 13 years ago

theage.com.au

nwh2• 13 years ago

I thought we were clear of this shit.

cheald• 13 years ago

Not for a long time, I suspect.

bigiain5• 13 years ago

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Really?

My immediate thoughts when Snowden's first revelations came to light were "I wonder just how much our local Australian government has rolled over and played lap-dog to every US intelligence request, no matter _how_ illegal or immoral?"

I also have very little faith in the Australian civil rights movement - the US has some powerful, smart, and noisy civil rights activism - here I see very little that appears in any way effectual.

Encrypt all the things… -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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gregsq• 13 years ago

Well if your local job centre front desk can access your metadata with the nod of your supervisor upstairs, or if the upcoming referendum on local councils coming under federal auspices succeeds, and would allow as a consequence all levels of government to probe citizens metadata, I'm sure the NSA can.

The furore over the NSA data hoovering and the fourth amendment has no parallel in Australia. The general citizenry is completely uninformed, complacent and lazily uninterested in these matters.

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/victorians-private-...

http://powerhouse.theglobalmail.org/the-australian-governmen...

rhizome2• 13 years ago

You thought wrong, and apparently there is more to come, so put on your seatbelt.

ramblerman2• 13 years ago

I wonder what would cause you to say something so stupid.

When you say "this shit" do you mean the negative image the USA is gaining from this? Why on earth would you prefer to remain in ignorant bliss about these happenings?

nwh2• 13 years ago

No, I thought that Australia was independent enough that we wouldn't be ferrying our data to the United States. It's a reasonably enough assumption.

bigiain5• 13 years ago

I read that not as "stupid", but (perhaps incorrectly) as a fellow Australian finally admitting to themselves that we're fooling ourselves if we think we can point an laugh at USA's treatment of their citizens while hiding behind some expectation that our local government is treating us with any more respect.

The sad thing is, our government is no better, out intelligence service is just as amoral and unaccountable, and our civil liberty movement is ineffectual to the point of being invisible. Perhaps "ignorant bliss" was preferable…

krapp• 13 years ago

Non-Americans are going to have to come to terms with the likelihood that their governments cooperate with the US not because of blackmail or coercion or fear, but because they agree with the justification for and procedures surrounding this kind of surveillance, and very much appreciate the US's willingness to throw billions of dollars into the pot to help it happen.

talon88• 13 years ago

I find the drip-feed of information a really interesting choice, though I'm curious of its efficacy versus the wikileaks style dump.

It keeps the news alive for a longer period of time, sure, but it also means fewer eyes are looking over it and connecting the dots between various different pieces of the revealed information.

Wouldn't it be better if everything was revealed at once, and the various investigative reporters out there all got to go through it independently and write up a cohesive summation of the results, instead of this two-three page exposé per day?

oceanstone6• 13 years ago

Would Breaking Bad be as good if every episode were released at once?

nikcub• 13 years ago

this isn't for the same reason, its because they learned from wikileaks that the publics ability to absorb information is limited. a lot of important issues were burried in the wikileaks' releases.

ZirconCode• 13 years ago

Maybe it's done in view of personal security? Maybe he doesn't want to make all his enemies at once.

bigiain5• 13 years ago

He's also in the middle of finding out who his enemies already are. I'll be _very_ surprised to see Bolivia, Venezuela, or Nicaragua show up on the leak schedule.

rhizome2• 13 years ago

I'm curious of its efficacy versus the wikileaks style dump.

How do you propose to measure such a thing?

hkmurakami3• 13 years ago

News seems to last 5 seconds these days so I'm all for this choice.

skore• 13 years ago

No, I think this is incredibly clever. Imagine how this release would have looked if the Australian government had thrown a fit and tried to make an example of the USs bad behavior[0].

If you're dealing with a criminal, having a slight upper hand in information while playing it as though you know everything is a proven tool. Like a police interview where an accused gets presented with a crime so you can watch him or her come up with an excuse, which, in turn, might reveal information that you didn't even know before.

In fact, one minister in Germany made a pretty grave statement about how the US behavior was "monstrous". So now I'm kind of waiting for the Snowden story to get to the part where things about Germany are revealed.

[0]It seems like they did the opposite, as they usually do, doubling down in 'Merica adoration. Which is still similarly funny.

digitalengineer• 13 years ago

I thought Snowden had already released everything and it was up to the media to decide what will be released when?

hulksmash• 13 years ago

I'm a bit confused too.

From the article:

"Classified US National Security Agency maps leaked by Mr Snowden and published by US journalist Glenn Greenwald in the Brazilian O Globo newspaper reveal the locations of dozens of US and allied signals intelligence collection sites that contribute to interception of telecommunications and internet traffic worldwide."

It sounds like the Guardian released this information, but I'm not really sure.

acqq• 13 years ago

The Australian journalists just "decoded" the references to Australia from the slides first time presented in Brazil's O Globo by Glenn Greenwald some days ago.

nodata• 13 years ago

Isn't that nitpicking? Snowden released some information through the Guardian.

ramblerman2• 13 years ago

Russia said it would grant him immunity under the condition there were no more leaks. So who is responsible for this leak is certainly relevant.

That said I could imagine this is enough for Russia to make their case either way.

belorn• 13 years ago

It is only nitpicking if you consider the Guardian to have zero editorial control over what they publish.

There is a supposed distinguishable feature between a user/self publishing website, and a publisher with editorial control. One is considered as free from responsibility regarding the content and get legal protection to said effect (with exceptions like DMCA), and the other is supposed to be responsible for the content being published. News papers has always been responsible when they publish secret information, but are protected under the freedom of the press. Self/users-publishing sites like youtube, wikileaks, facebook, twitter, flickr and so on is not responsible for the content available on their websites (again, with some exceptions). Content on those sites are published by users, and the user is responsible.

One could of course argue that Snowden is ultimate responsible for providing the Guradian the ability in publishing the information, through that would be a slight lie. "Ultimate" would mean that there aren't anyone with even more responsibility, which the term whistleblower tend to disagree with. As such, there is plenty of blame to throw around if one wishes to build a blame tree.

hkmurakami3• 13 years ago

iirc he did store the files is various places on the internet, encrypted.

irollboozers• 13 years ago

This is now getting so entirely overwhelming. It's like you're on the beach getting repeatedly smashed by waves that get bigger and bigger. There's nothing you can do to fight it, stop it, or move, and it just keeps coming. I feel so helpless with every new leak.

jaekwon10• 13 years ago

You're far, far from alone.

Relax and join the movement... it's going to be a long ride.

--> http://goo.gl/lc7Fz

kimlelly3• 13 years ago

Except:

DON'T relax. These feelings of frustration are absolutely NORMAL and they must be channeled into action, not relaxation.

hkmurakami3• 13 years ago

well if it's a tsunami situation we quite literally need to run for the hills. The question is, where are "the hills" and how do we get there in this situation?

Or maybe we need to democratize the analogue of a submarine.

jaekwon10• 13 years ago

Tsunami situation verified. Relax, nobody on our side wants a violent revolution. The only hills you will find are the global enlightened community.

You will initially get depressed as you see the injustice around you.

You can deny what you see and go back to browsing Facebook.

Or, you can embrace the movement. I've been traveling the rabbit hole and I assure you that the thing is manageable if you put your time into it.

Here are some guidelines:

- You already have local communities (hacker/creative spaces) that have members who are on top of the news and working to escape the system. Find them.

- Find the commonality between libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-socialism. None of these ideologies are sufficient, but the conversations and debates are converging.

- Learn history and social/economic sciences. The history of debt money, the collapse of rome, today's corporate power structures, etc.

- Understand how the dollar works and how it's controlled and enforced. Support alternative currencies.

- Support open hardware. The EFF is your friend. Learn more about encryption and understand the vulnerabilities online and offline.

I could go on, share links, etc.

ra2• 13 years ago

There's actually nothing new in this leak. Pine Gap [1] and HMAS Harman [2] were discussed on here a couple of weeks ago. Really what we're seeing here is the current generation of Echelon [3].

I'm not saying it's OK, far from it. It's just that there's nothing new in this story.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

beedogs2• 13 years ago

Was the "full take" system in the UK mentioned previously? That's the scariest thing, to me. They're literally saving every bit of data that enters or leaves the UK, and they can store three days' worth already.

halviti• 13 years ago

Nothing new? Did you even read the article?

"Tempora is the first 'I save everything' approach ('full take') in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it"

The other systems have always been given some degree of plausible deniability by government doing some hand-waving and suggesting that they have controlled methods by which wiretaps are only placed on specific targets, for specific reasons, etc. etc.

When you start saving everything, especially stuff that you know you are not supposed to, you are violating UK law (Human Rights Act of 1988) as well as international law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive)

Trying to pass this off as nothing to be concerned about means that you are not paying attention, or don't care.

selimthegrim• 13 years ago

Meet the new boss, same as the old.

http://williambowles.info/spysrus/cia_australia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman

oceanstone6• 13 years ago

We can stop it, and redirect it.

Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. Currently, politicians hand us laws that are drafted by corporations & lobbyists, then we simply react.

It's all about us being more assertive.

jaekwon10• 13 years ago

We will win.

We already have the bill of rights. Creating new laws won't help us. It's too late for that. Maybe repealing some laws and executive orders might help... but what we're seeing is the symptom of something bigger than governments.

We need to see the cage and step out of it. Educating ourselves and honing our common sense will help us. Becoming self sufficient will help us.

fpgeek• 13 years ago

Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win.

There's an important step you forgot to include: Getting the new laws enforced. When most of the people in charge of the enforcement are used to (and may well have liked) the old laws, that will not be simple.

alan_cx3• 13 years ago

Laws: rules for the weak, guidance for the powerful.

a3n• 13 years ago

By my layman's point of view, we already have existing laws that are being flouted, among the the 4th Amendment which requires specific warrants for specific investigations, and the various laws authorizing and limiting surveillance. They do whatever they want despite these existing laws, by a) just doing it, and b) getting the administration through the Attorney General to reinterpret laws so that what was illegal is now justified by the very laws that previously made things illegal, and c) a captive, secret court that only hears one side of any query by the government and rubber stamps all NSA actions.

Given that, what good would a new law do? They already have everything in place to subvert any law they want, and their chief tool is mere will.

What might change things is public outrage and muscular congressional hearings, a la Watergate. I can't see that ever happening again.

kimlelly3• 13 years ago

I'm sure something will eventually happen. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe only in 5 years.

The thing is, Edward Snowden was the 1st one to show us he's ready to die for this cause.

I'm sure the number of people willing to go further will only increase. And that will ultimately lead to actions.

EDIT: The movement will "only" have to make sure not be sabotaged and killed off by the surveillance state, along the way.

kimlelly3• 13 years ago

EDIT II: The thing is, life under these circumstances (and the logical consequences which will appear, sooner or later) is only worth so much.

jboy2• 13 years ago

To me, much more concerning is Snowden's revelation that the British intelligence program 'Tempora' "saves everything":

"Tempora is the first 'I save everything' approach ('full take') in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it. ... Right now, the system is capable of saving three days' worth of traffic [...]. 'Full take' means that the system saves everything. If you send a data packet and if makes its way through the UK, we will get it."

user242• 13 years ago

even more concerning when coupled with the fact that no UK news outlet is covering Tempora due to the D-Notice.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/defence-d-bbc-me...

grey-area2• 13 years ago

Worse than that, the BBC is running puff pieces like this one today telling us how GCHQ kept the lights on at the Olympic ceremony:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23195283

Telling us how useful GCHQ is in the fight against terror without mentioning Tempora.

DanBC4• 13 years ago

To me there's something of the "if a tree falls in a forest" koan here.

"If an agency caches the data but doesn't grep the data for anything related to me has my privacy been violated?"

I would be a lot more worried if it was a US and not a UK agency.

I would also be a lot more worried if it wasn't GCHQ, but was a police force.

There are other databases in the UK that are a lot more concerning to me. All the stuff that supermarkets collect on people with loyalty cards[1], all the medical databases, the misuse of criminal records bureau checking. (These last two have real world examples of real world harm being done to individuals. But perhaps GCHQ's doesn't because it's secret and the information is shared with weird routes.)

[1] Many years ago some friends and I had a loyalty card for "Ivor Trots". He only ever bought loo roll.

grey-area2• 13 years ago

If an agency caches the data but doesn't grep the data for anything related to me has my privacy been violated?

If it's stored indefinitely (as they have the ambition to do, and will soon have the ability), it doesn't matter if it is not used today, or in the past. What if at some point in your life you run for parliament, or your business strikes a prominent deal with a foreign power? At that point your records can be taken out and scrutinised by whoever has access to this data at that point in time, and you won't even know, because it's secret. Information has a habit of spreading beyond the intended boundaries, and if it is collected in secret, we have no way of controlling that spread or controlling its use.

I would be a lot more worried if it was a US and not a UK agency.

You should be worried then, because this data is routinely shared with the NSA, seems to be collected under the remit of a joint program, and is probably stored indefinitely by several GCHQ partners where someone is judged to be of interest or enemy of the state/agency, the definition of which will of course vary with the agency.

I would also be a lot more worried if it wasn't GCHQ, but was a police force.

I'd be surprised if access is not given the police on some level, given their participation in counter-terrorism activities, and there's nothing to stop a secret policy change giving more access, you wouldn't even know about it. So you should be worried.

There are other databases in the UK that are a lot more concerning to me.

Given that those databases exist online, and are probably transmitted regularly as backups etc as well as accessed via the internet, you can assume that all that data is also accessible by GCHQ partners and clients. The important difference though is that, as you point out, these databases are public, acknowledged to exist, and controlled by our existing law. If you want to you can challenge the use or collection of the data in a court, sometimes you can stop using these services, or ask to see all information collected on you, but no such options are available for information gathered and shared in the name of security.

What I find troubling here is that the only limit on the indefinite storage of all this material by GCHQ is technical, not legal or moral, and that limit will soon be overcome.

AngrySkillzz• 13 years ago

In any other situation I can think of, the important part is copying the data and not accessing it. If I copied someone's personal files, or files containing a company's trade secrets, or top secret files from the government, but promised to never look at them I'm still breaking the law. This might be a simplistic view, but why should it be any different for the government?

mpyne3• 13 years ago

Why would the UK worry you less than the US? Just a matter of scale, or something structural?

ForFreedom• 13 years ago

This is... WOW..

a2d9s222• 13 years ago

I struggle to believe that GCHQ has the ability to store 3 or even 30 days worth of internet traffic flowing through the UK borders and also make reasonable sense of it all. It's such a mind boggling amount of data. I looked at some bandwidth graphs from places like LINX, which is just one of presumably many, and they are moving around a terrabyte a second - how can you possibly store, let alone sift through that kind of volume? 30 days at a terrabyte a second is nearly 3,000 petabytes of data. And that's just in one exchange. Is this kind of thing feasible? Facebook allegedly deals with 200PB of photo data - 3000PB is a lot more than that.

femto2• 13 years ago

Three seconds of data at 1TB/s, will fit on the largest consumer hard drive (3TB). There are 3 x 86400 seconds in a day = 259200 seconds. Therefore three days' data requires 86400 drives. Cost of said drives is about $100 each, meaning the cost of disks to store 3 days of data is $8.64 million, which is negligible to the government. Even with multiple links at 1TB/s the problem is tractable.

a2d9s222• 13 years ago

I know, i did the numbers too - but it's still an almost unthinkable amount of data to try and make sense of. If we conservatively say that there are 5 others like linx, that's nearly half a million 3TB drives. And that's only for 3 days! edit: clarity

malandrew2• 13 years ago

Storing it really is the trivial and cheap part. There are other really hard problems to solve:

(1) Where do you place collection points so you get a full take of not only international traffic (moving across your borders) and domestic traffic (all traffic within your borders but that doesn't leave your borders) (2) Since the number of collection points is limited, that means there is a lot of data that has to be recorded at select points. How do you record that data to disk in real time? (3) How do you avoid the duplication of packets that travel through multiple collection points. (4) Lastly, the most difficult problem is figuring out how to query all that data and not end up with a haystack. When you have millions and millions of pieces of communication from people with no involvement in the criminal activity, then all that communication becomes noise.

speeder• 13 years ago

The same O Globo article reported a list of priority targets of the NSA and they are basically the BRIC ( interestingly the population here did not gave a shit about knowing US spies on them) also Iran andsome other powerful countries. North Korea,.Cuba, Venezuela or Afghanistan are not on the priority list, making clear that the "terrorism" is just a misdirection, and that PRISM true purpose still is.intelligence for potential.enemies.in a.conventional war.

lightyoruichi• 13 years ago

This is funny, if you actually google the keyword X-Keyscore, you'll find job opportunities that matches the criteria of intelligence gathering. And if you look closely, you'll find out it's a company called Raytheon that's awarded the contract to execute these works. And they have main offices in these crucial locations, eg; Fort Meade, Australia etc. And that they do all these kind of intelligence works.

And ironically, Raytheon's scientist was the dude who invented microwave.

Edit: Found this post from Feb 27th. About X-Keyscore, http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?tag=xkeyscore and the interesting snippet.

What happens next looks like a 21st-century data assembly line. At the NSA’s headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, a program called Xkeyscore processes all intercepted electronic signals before sending them to different “production lines” that deal with specific issues. Here, we find another array of code names.

Pinwale is the main NSA database for recorded signals intercepts, the authors report. Within it, there are various keyword compartments, which the NSA calls “selectors.” Metadata (things like the “To” and “From” field on an e-mail) is stored in a database called Marina. It generally stays there for five years. In a database called Maui there is “finished reporting,” the transcripts and analysis of calls. (Metadata never goes here, the authors found.)

As all this is happening, there are dozens of other NSA signals activity lines, called SIGADS, processing data. There’s Anchory, an all-source database for communications intelligence; Homebase, which lets NSA analysts coordinate their searches based on priorities set by the Director of National Intelligence; Airgap, which deals with missions that are a priority for the Department of Defense; Wrangler, an electronic intelligence line; Tinman, which handles air warning and surveillance; and more.

Lest you get confused by this swirl of code names and acronyms, keep this image in mind of the NSA as a data-analysis factory. Based on my own reporting, the agency is collecting so much information every day that without a regimented, factory-like system, analysts would never have the chance to look at it all. Indeed, they don’t analyze much of it. Computers handle a chunk, but a lot of information remains stored for future analysis.

Snowden releases information about Australian Intelligence gathering programs

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