Germany says Cold War tactics don't help EU-US trade talks

http://news.yahoo.com/germanys-greens-snowden-safe-haven-europe-080014894.html

by NonEUCitizen • 13 years ago

208 53 13 years ago

news.yahoo.com

NonEUCitizen• 13 years ago

Also, from Der Spiegel:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=h...

mtgx• 13 years ago

"Trittin said that in response to the latest revelations, the EU should suspend exchanging banking and flight data with the United States."

I wasn't aware the US actually "exchanges" any passenger data with the EU. I thought it's just EU giving them the data. So he probably means "EU needs to stop giving data to US".

Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US.

tome• 13 years ago

Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US.

Then why would the EU enter into them?

LinaLauneBaer3• 13 years ago

So that the US can do the "dirty work".

We give the data to the US and, of course, the US only uses the data to fight terrorism.

I think our politicians knew that the US was doing more with the data than they said. But since this kind of data usage is not really aceptable in large parts of the EU we simply gave the data to the US to get the job done.

Then the politicians could say "we are not using your data and the US is only using it to fight terrorism" but in fact there was much more going on and everybody knew that.

brown9-2• 13 years ago

Do you have a source for your last two statements?

The idea that European intelligence agencies aren't interested in any data that the US could give them seems absurd.

rumcajz• 13 years ago

Yes. Exactly. This is the least we can do in the Europe. There are at least 3 reasons to do so:

1. This way we can signal we mean it with the democracy thing. 2. We can prevent random despot to claim moral superiority to EU because of granting the asylum. 3. EU is relatively safe from US revenge, unlike smaller countries.

kriro2• 13 years ago

The fact that Germany was spied on massively and it didn't seem that they were all that aware of it and the fact that the US has well established channels from the cold war there would mean that I wouldn't exactly feel safe if that was my safe haven.

Would be interesting to create a "how safe are you from foreign nations' assassination/capturing etc. here" index.

For the pairing Germany-USA I'd say not very safe.

bayesianhorse4• 13 years ago

The CIA can get you anywhere, as can Mossad or pretty much any other agency. Heck, even Libya managed attacks in western countries. It's just that diplomatic repercussions or outright war are usually enough of a deterrent.

In this particular case, the US can't do anything about it. Obama said he won't use fighter jets to get Snowden. If he fails on even that concrete specific and understandable promise, then he can kiss a good deal of American influence in the world goodbye.

anon1385• 13 years ago

I'm not sure the protection of the German state is something the US will care about:

Khalid El-Masri (born June 29, 1963) is a German citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian Police, and handed-over to the U.S. CIA, whose officers interrogated, sodomized and tortured him. While in CIA hands, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held in a black site, interrogated, beaten, strip-searched and subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, tantamount to torture. After El-Masri held hunger strikes, and was detained for four months in the "Salt Pit", the CIA finally admitted his arrest and torture were a mistake and released him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri

andrewcooke3• 13 years ago

snowden is a white american. americans don't (in general - see reactions here to nsa) care about foreigners (especially coloured ones - guantanamo), but they get upset if a white american is hurt. so this won't happen with him.

artto• 13 years ago

Remember Bradley Manning?

bayesianhorse4• 13 years ago

It's not so much about race... But this issue goes to show how slippery the slope is once you make exemptions to human rights...

zimbatm• 13 years ago

Technically they can do it but the political implications would be much different. Snowden is not a no-name citizen, abducting him would create an international diplomatic incident.

nolok• 13 years ago

French's Green party made the same request during the night (asking to grant him asylum in France)

http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/07/01/eelv-d...

ramblerman2• 13 years ago

I'm actually suprised Russia,Ecuador, and Iceland were the only viable candidates mentioned for Snowden.

Although not a certainty I would imagine Belgium, France, and Germany would be good candidates also.

JanezStupar2• 13 years ago

That is because beyond rhetoric. EU countries are mere colonies of the US and EU politicians will not do anything if they do not get a nod from the US.

EU is not independent and is a mere satellite of the US. I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy.

ramblerman2• 13 years ago

"I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy."

hmm, not sure why you felt the need to add that part. Were you even responding to my question or just reading off an internal script :P

As far as freedom goes, I can only speak for Belgium, my country. I am certainly envious of the economic freedom you see in the US. We have slid a little too far to the left over here. We also don't have the same level of free speech as the US: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negatio...)

That being said, I won't be jailed for smoking a joint or experimenting with psychedelics. Our government isn't secretive and elusive in the way yours is and I'm not terrified of ever landing in prison here.

look_lookatme• 13 years ago

I know right? First when the hipster artists moved into my neighborhood I was like, this is ok I guess. Rent went up, but then everything gentrified a little. Then came the artisanal hipster bread makers and hipster coffee shops which were kind of convenient, though a little pretentious I guess.

But when the feel good G7 hipsters showed up, I knew everything had changed. I mean they can't even figure out a simple Kyoto protocol, you know?

dhughes2• 13 years ago

I'm about wondering about Switzerland being neutral would that be part of considerations when dealing with political prisoners?

And Switzerland is not part of the EU, I'm not sure if that's good or bad in this situation.

ra• 13 years ago

I think Switzerland's financial industry is too important to risk by getting involved in this.

Those in glass houses?

simfoo• 13 years ago

Please, whenever you read something about German politicians these days, keep in mind that there's an election this fall...

PavlovsCat• 13 years ago

Then why isn't Merkel demanding the same?

LinaLauneBaer3• 13 years ago

Because she is from a conservative party which is more or less "okay" with surveillance.

She is not saying the same because she wants to play conservative and differentiate herself from the Greens/Left Party and SPD.

kriro2• 13 years ago

Traditional "Merkelian" politics is basically...wait until stuff blows over and let others make a fool of themselves. Same policy that Kohl followed ("Aussitzen") :)

I think this has some potential of losing her the elections though. Mostly because it seems the Greens will gain most from all of this.

bayesianhorse4• 13 years ago

Because she is actually in power and would have to live with all the repercussions. Oppositional politicians don't have that problem and can talk all day long about what the people like to hear.

Lapsa• 13 years ago

i don't mind him putting tent in my garden too. would get bit cold when autumn hits though.

Uchikoma• 13 years ago

Not here in Berlin please, I don't want Reaper strikes here. Thanks.

bartman• 13 years ago

When they say "Germany's third largest party" it's important to know that they only hold about 11% of the seats of the German Parliament (Bundestag) right now and are unlikely to affect matters in this case.

v0lta• 13 years ago

That's definitly right, but the demand of the greens is all over the media here. I don't think, that Snowden will really get safe haven in Europe, but it's nice to see that a lot of Germans would approve it. The outrage reaches the mainstream.

mtrimpe• 13 years ago

For context, the first and second party got 34% and 23% of votes respectively.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009

sveme• 13 years ago

True, but due to proportional representation, smaller parties play a much larger role in German politics than, say, the UK or the US. Just a shift of about three percent from the current coalition of CDU and FDP to the SPD and Greens in the upcoming election would end Merkel's reign. And the NSA story might be just the event that moves those three percent from the current coalition to the opposition.

rwissmann• 13 years ago

Yes, if anything the Greens as the third largest party play a much bigger role in German politics than someone from an American or Commonwealth background would intuitively expect.

mahrz• 13 years ago

Most probably the minister of foreign affairs would be coming from the green party in such a case. Though that might change their rethoric a bit.

lispm• 13 years ago

It would be great, but in reality Snowden would not be safe in Germany. We still have tens of thousands US military personel (the US central commands for Europe and Africa are here) and lots of US intelligence agencies active here. The US were also using Germany to transfer their secret prisoners to the torture prisons in East Europe.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/cia-folter-in-polen-im-wa...

fnordfnordfnord• 13 years ago

Seibert (Merkel's representative) brushed aside a suggestion by the opposition Greens that the EU should provide a safe haven for Snowden.

Merkel isn't on board yet.

Germany says Cold War tactics don't help EU-US trade talks

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