Ask HN: Any programmers here that are able to make a living selling their own programs?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=581768

by doubleyooexwhy • 17 years ago

86 57 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

If so, feel free to share any advice you might have, and plug your own product as well.

I'm a programmer always looking for inspiration, and my dream is to make a living writing and selling my /own/ software, from my /own/ computer chair.

alain940402• 17 years ago

Yes.

Join the Joel on Software community (http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/?biz) would be my advice.

Don't count on donations is my other advice :-)

Selling consumer software: very tough, but can be done by one individual.

Selling to businesses: very specialized, much easier to make your first $100K, but you can't be a one-man shop.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

That's what I gather. I think for the consumer, they want most things to be free -- and if they're not free, there's always going to be a crack/keygen available for download.

ruslan• 17 years ago

Sell service instead. Like, if you develop a game, sell online access to maps which cannot be downloaded, but can be used once connected. Maintaining accounts is much easier than maintaining keys which can be cracked.

rmc00• 17 years ago

Right now, I only sell my services as a freelancer, but I would love to sell my actual software. I found David Heinemeier Hansson's talk at Startup School 08 (http://www.omnisio.com/startupschool08/david-heinemeier-hans...) to be profound in its simplicity.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

I'm trying. I wrote AutoScreen (http://www.16software.com/autoscreen) about a year ago, and I'm getting 2-3 sales a month -- the majority of those sales seem to come from small businesses -- with $0 in advertising (can't afford it, to be honest). I've been kept fairly busy adding new features for my users, but it's time to focus on another app, because 2-3 sales/month is definitely not enough to survive on.

For me, the hard part is coming up with something "worth" taking the time and effort to go through with. I've had some ideas -- but I want to do something unique, that has a chance to really take off. But should I target the everyday user, or should I target businesses (who are less likely to pirate, from what I read)? Should I make something that has the chance to be wildly popular among all computer users, or that is targeted towards a niche audience?

The good thing about knowing how to program, though, is it's essentially all you need (besides a good idea) in order to make a living on your own.

Of course you need some other skills, such as marketing, but it seems to me, if you've got a program that does something that people think is useful enough to pay for, you're set.

Looking forward to what you guys have to say. For what it's worth, I also posted this topic on reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_progr...) about a week ago.

russell• 17 years ago

$.02 worth. If you can target your software or marketing towards a vertical, the relevant magazines and industry associations are starving for articles. You can get free marketing from how to articles targeting a vertical. Then rewrite it for another vertical. A possible idea is how an existing customer is using your product. Better than brochureware.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

Brilliant, thanks a lot.

zackattack• 17 years ago

How is TrialPay working out for you?

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

Better than expected. Out of around 35 sales, 3 came from TrialPay, pulling in $75 in revenue. That's $14 less than if my four customers didn't use TrialPay, but I could've made the MAP (Minimum Acceptable Payout) higher if I was really that worried.

I think it's a good option for those potential customers who are iffy about making the purchase.

alain940402• 17 years ago

@16software: I took a look at your site. A couple of things are broken and you should fix them to improve your sales.

From your home page, the link to "our products" doesn't work, it stays on the same page. So I'll never know what products you have!

Your CSS template needs a refresh. The single-column layout looks like it's from the 90s. Just add some kind of right column, a few frames with light-colored backgrounds, and it will look much better.

About piracy: forget about it, it's not as big a problem as you think. First, those who use pirated software would most likely not have paid for it in the first place. But more important, people on pirate software they want. And if you found a niche that people want, then you'll get plenty of legitimate customers.

Last (you are bringing up so many interesting points, I have to stop somewhere): marketing is very important. I sort of covered that point on my blog (http://blog.fairsoftware.net/2009/03/11/the-great-startup-id...), but I'll probably repost something more specific.

Just because you wrote an interesting program doesn't mean that anyone will ever know or use it. How disappointing is that? Marketing is not about fluffy balloons and pink super bowl ads. It's about being smart and figuring out where your customers are and how to reach them. You can do a lot of marketing on a null budget, if you spend some time. A good rule of thumb for a programmer is to dedicate one hour a day on marketing activities.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

From your home page, the link to "our products" doesn't work, it stays on the same page. So I'll never know what products you have!

I can see where that might be confusing. Thanks for pointing that out -- a separate page probably would be better.

The single-column layout looks like it's from the 90s. Just add some kind of right column, a few frames with light-colored backgrounds, and it will look much better.

Okay. To me, it looks elegant and simple, which is what I love, but I have noticed that most websites don't have just one column. I'll see if I can't come up with a better design with multiple columns. After reading some of the other comments here, I'll probably want to drastically change the content on my product page, too.

First, those who use pirated software would most likely not have paid for it in the first place.

I agree with you here.

Thanks for all of the advice, I'll definitely mull over it and see if I can't make some changes. I'll be sure to read your blog posting, too.

thorax• 17 years ago

This is very useful info-- a weekend or so ago I made an app in this area. With a little marketing I think there are some industries where you could get more sales.

You might actually look into making this into a web service where you store the images on your site with timelines, etc, to help the users sort through it. You may make more with a monthly free for the backend piece than you make on the front-end, but it does require more sysadmin work.

Thanks for sharing.

pbz3• 17 years ago

You really need to invest some time in spicing up that page / site. I understand wanting to be minimalist, but come on... It needs a nicer structure / layout, a little bit more color, more pictures / screenshots. Lots of text may be what "hackers" like, but people in general want less; still informative, but less. There are other points, some which have been addressed, but I would start from making it look nice. Don't underestimate the importance of good presentation.

Honestly, if I was a customer I would have closed down the page within second not even trying to figure out what you're trying to sell. I hope you take this as constructive criticism. Good luck!

pbz3• 17 years ago

A few more thing, take this as an example: http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/ (not an Apple fan, but they usually get this stuff right; this page is not perfect, but not bad).

A few things:

* Notice the background color is darker than the content; this is to emphasize the actual content of the page. I would make the background color a bit darker.

* You probably don't have as many "categories" so I would put everything in one page.

* Notice the attraction points. Close your eyes for 5 second then open then. What do you notice the first second? This is where people will look first. You need to have the important stuff there or near it. The attraction points are usually images.

* Make a video or what your application does. People expect to be entertained, not to read. Once you capture their attention you can present more text / information. If you entertain somebody, either with a good video or nice eye candy, they will feel indebted to look more into your product. So the stages / levels should be 1: wow them, 2: convince them, 3: educate them

* Pay attention to details in your website and also your product. If your presentation page is good, people will at least give your application a fair shot. Their first impression is your site not the first time they use your application; that's way later.

For more tips: http://www.dnrtv.com/default.aspx?showNum=112 and http://www.dnrtv.com/default.aspx?showNum=123

Good luck.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

Wow, I didn't realize it looked so bad. I thought it was easy to see what the program was about, how to download it, etc, and looked clean, but I guess not.

I appreciate the feedback, and I'll definitely be working out a redesign of the site soon.

boundlessdreamz• 17 years ago

I agree with others. You definitely need to spruce up the site. I expect good software to have good websites.I would never buy anything from a site which looked like that simply because I would think how much effort went into making the software work well if the website is shoddy. Good websites also create a desire. Whenever I open this product page http://culturedcode.com/things/ I'm tempted to buy.

I don't know whether you have any experience in web development but polish is essential in making people try out and buy products.

If you need further convincing check out the story of convertbot and weightbot (iPhone apps)

andrewljohnson• 17 years ago

I don't understand why the first thing you say on your website is you are small. Is that really a selling point? As a former ad copywriter, let me tell you that ad copy is not the place for self-deprecation.

Why don't you tell them what an awesome product you have and how awesome a programmer you are, instead of saying you are a one-man band that could disappear at any moment.

thinkcomp• 17 years ago

I make a living running Think (http://www.thinkcomputer.com) and have customers using Exponent, which is a web-based financial management (accounting + payroll + taxes + CRM) program, Whiteboard, our CMS, and Lampshade, our PHP framework.

mgiger• 17 years ago

I've been making a living from selling my shareware app EarthBrowser (http://earthbrowser.com) for over 10 years now. It isn't easy competing with Google Earth, but it's possible to do a one man shop if you work smart.

wushupork• 17 years ago

EarthBrowser is awesome. I looked at it not too long ago and thought it was very impressive.

jlsonline• 17 years ago

Just took a look at EarthBrowser. Very cool indeed. I didn't expect Adobe AIR and would prefer it didn't default to a desktop icon but overall I like it quite a lot. Can I remove the drop shadow from the default font?

An unexpected side effect is that I can finally tell what time it is in England (for football / soccer matches. Go Arsenal!)

Edit - registered my copy. Really enjoying it!

Edit 2 - The included version 1.0 of Adobe Air raised an alert ("very dangerous") in Kaspersky Anti-Virus 2009. I went ahead and upgraded to version 1.5.1 of Air, as was suggested by Kaspersky.

pz5• 17 years ago

I know its a bit trendy, but I am making a living off of iPhone apps. I don't have any smash hits but have been maintaining a fairly consistent income since I published my first app last December. Right now I am trying to ramp up the number of apps I have and my goal is to match my previous salary at a "hot, young internet startup" in the valley (which is in the throws of death, i think)

This was my first experience selling software, I was always a research oriented, backend sort of guy... usually a few abstractions away from the actual product. So I had to think about a lot of new things, but it was really fun. I wasn't used to thinking about where buttons should go or how the UI flow for creating a new game. And I certainly wasn't used to responding to user feedback. The first version of my first game was pretty buggy and people complained and there was my name next to it in the app store. Not something I was used to. But now I most of the emails I get tell me how much they like the program and as much as I like to say I hate people, it feels pretty good.

So maybe that's inspiring.

Or maybe the fact that its noon and I'm typing this from bed with my dogs asleep next to me will inspire you. Although, the freedom to work on my own terms is a blessing and a curse. This has been covered before on HN, but I would say if you have the self discipline, then its more of a blessing.

I have mixed feelings about writing apps because it can be a crapshoot. I don't think you can go into it expecting to write a huge hit, but I also think its one of the best places for an independent software developer. Apple takes care of a lot of the non-development details for you and you can get your app in front of a lot of eyes very quickly.

PS: I will probably go back to work at another startup someday. As much as fun as I'm having, I do miss working with a good team of folks on something that requires EVERYONE's effort. But for now, I am very happy doing what I'm doing.

ambulatorybird2• 17 years ago

So people complained that you were doing business under your own name? Did you set up a 'doing business as' since then?

johns• 17 years ago

My interpretation of what he said is that they were complaining about his programs and the reviews were next to his name.

doubleyooexwhy9• 17 years ago

I'd love to write an iPhone app, but I don't have a Mac. I really wish Apple would open up development for *nix/Windows users.

bemmu2• 17 years ago

If you're going to undergo the effort of writing an app, it seems that the cost of getting a Mac Mini is peanuts compared to that.

Dancrew32• 17 years ago

VixML (http://vixml.com) just released their Windows SDK for iPhone. Might want to try it out.

pz5• 17 years ago

I'll also add that at least one of my other ex-coworkers from said "hot, young internet startup" is also making a living off of iPhone apps. I think he's actually close to matching his previous salary.

There's been a lot of press about these blockbuster iphone apps that rescue poor developers from poverty and change their lives. That's all well and good, but I think there is a more realistic middle ground that people should be aware of.

nickpp• 17 years ago

I very much enjoyed the answers to this very question on Digg (oops sorry I mean Reddit):

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_progr...

kbrower• 17 years ago

digg==reddit?

silentOpen• 17 years ago

It's not a question any more. :-(

ssprang• 17 years ago

I'm making a living with Brushes, a painting app for the iPhone (http://brushesapp.com). I started developing it about a year ago, and it's been on sale since August 2008. Sales didn't really take off until January, when the work of one of my artists got picked up by a lot of blogs (and eventually Gizmodo). It was subsequently featured on the front page of the iTunes App Store and that was certainly helpful.

At this point, I'm somewhat reluctant to work on new iPhone apps. There are so many apps on the store that it's far too easy to get lost in the noise. An iPhone game that some friends and I released back in December was DOA. I will admit that I haven't fully cracked the marketing nut yet though.

I'm actually looking for an exceptional graphic designer in the SF Bay area with whom to collaborate on some iPhone/Mac OS X projects if anyone is interested.

pz5• 17 years ago

Hi, i posted a response to the same link about my experience developing iphone apps.

I've published two of my own apps. One of them fulfilled a specific niche and was picked up right away. Its not a blockbuster but sales have been significant (i.e. living wage) and steady.

My other app disappeared very quickly and i was pretty discouraged. I made a light version and it wasn't much help. Then it miraculously appeared on the "what's hot" list and sales are ok now.

jamroom3• 17 years ago

I've been selling Jamroom online for almost 6 years - supports me full time + 2 part time developers, and a handful of designers as well.

joshsharp2• 17 years ago

Now that's a nice idea - you're basically just selling a CMS, but targeted at the music industry. Given the licenses don't seem to be recurring, you must have a fairly popular product to be able to live off it. Good work.

jamroom3• 17 years ago

Thanks for the follow up - it's appreciated. Jamroom was one of the very first CMS's (at the time we called it a Media CMS) that supported audio/video - most CMS systems back in 2003 were focusing on blogging and text handling, so it helped to be one of the first systems handling media. The shutdown of mp3.com sent a lot of users in our direction looking to handle things on their own, and we've been organically growing ever since ;)

bemmu2• 17 years ago

Before I was making my living from a Facebook app, which I sold for a sum which combined with my savings from the ad revenue is enough to support me for about 5 years. I figured it might take some time until I find the next thing, but just a few weeks after it my MySpace app Coolest Friends started to catch on and now I'm living off that.

I've had tons of little things and experiments I've done, but of course I selectively mention only those few that worked. I think it's important to just push stuff out there fast and see what happens.

harpastum3• 17 years ago

I just released Tranquil Checkers (http://www.tranquilapps.com), last thursday. I've only got three sales so far, but the first wave of 7-day trial expirations is coming up this thursday.

I'm only a college student, and I'm excited to join the fray.

pbz3• 17 years ago

I guess I'm a UI critiquing mood right now, so here it goes:

1) There's a little bit too much white space around your logo

2) There's not enough contrast on the menu bar between the lime and the white text. If you want to keep the same colors try to make the text in the menu larger (16/18px).

3) "Tranquil Checkers" rivals the logo in terms of importance, i.e. needs to be smaller or make the logo smaller. Basically, my eyes are not sure what's more important, the logo or that text. The icon on the left is also out of proportion with the text on the right. You could move the "Tranquil Checkers" text a bit higher and add a short explanation below (smaller text) so that the height of the changed block of text matches the height of the icon; or just make the icon smaller.

4) The text on the about section makes my eyes hurt. There's not enough contrast. Play around with those colors a bit.

5) "Download free 7-Day Trial" is too large. You could put some kind of icon on the left to draw attention.

6) The two columns of icons looks good.

7) See 5 for the text at the bottom.

Otherwise it's so close... :) I hope this helps, good luck!

harpastum3• 17 years ago

Thanks a lot for the input! I'm really not too experienced with design, so every little bit helps :)

joshsharp2• 17 years ago

Congratulations, and good luck with selling it. How/where do you advertise or market it? Or are you just hoping people will stumble across it and buy it?

harpastum3• 17 years ago

I've mostly just put it on the major software download sites (versiontracker, etc.), although I'm planning on doing some AdSense investment once I get a reasonably accurate conversion ratio.

adinobro• 17 years ago

My Dad has been selling his software for almost 8 years now and I know a number of people that have sold there own software. I will eventually do the same but I'm too busy at the moment. That being said there are a couple of things that you might want to think about.

1. Most products have a short self life. Think of all the iPhone apps. In 5 years we will probably be on the 3rd version and there will be lots of new features. If the application critical it is likely that the feature will be built into the iPhone at a later date or a free version will come out. If it isn't then it will reach market saturation and then the sales will die off.

2. You can make the sales increase by releasing a new version and fixing bugs. Depending on the application this can extend it's life by a number of years. You will also need to learn how to market your application. Do you want to spend time learning about internet marketing, seo, mailing lists, adwords, etc? Some people find it fun. Other people hate it.

3. Think of all the applications that you were using 5 or 10 years ago. How many are you currently using that you paid for?

4. From what I've seen there are two different ways that you can try to make money. Either make a product that people really need NOW and try to hit a home run and make a couple of hundred thousand dollars and if possible sell it to someone else before you reach market saturation. Or try to make try to link the product to a service. If you can make a service and make $10 profit then you only need 500 subscribers and you'll make a good living.

skuvnar• 17 years ago

wow this is really great advice. Currently building a educational game but having a bit of trouble of how to market my software. How effective, in your opinion, is google adwords?

patio11• 17 years ago

I make about a starting programmer's salary (for this neck of the woods) with Bingo Card Creator.

90% of the value is not created in the IDE. If you really understand that, you'll do fine.

brc• 17 years ago

Yes you can make a lving, and it can be a good one. I make a fulltime living selling my own software. I have no boss and set my own hours, which are either insane or lazy-to-the-bone, depending on how I feel.

The thing you have to remember is that the 80/20 powerlaw distribution seems to be welded to this area. 80% of the money in your niche will go to 20% of the apps on sale. 20% of your products will make 80% of your income. 20% of your problems will cause 80% of your support load. And on and on. So when you find yourself on the wrong part of the 80/20 distribution, take steps to get yourself to the 'right' part.

Oh, and discard your hackers 'everything must be perfect' mentality. Get it professional and stable, but most customers will probably not care how elegant the code is, or which platform you use. To make money you need to be solving their problems.

braindead_in• 17 years ago

http://callgraph.biz

Have been working on this for the past year, it pays my bills right now. :)

Ask HN: Any programmers here that are able to make a living selling their own programs?

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