Let’s help Airbnb rebuild the bridge it just burned

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2013/05/28/lets-help-airbnb-rebuild-the-bridge-it-just-burned/

by emhart • 13 years ago

202 129 13 years ago

blogs.law.harvard.edu

gamblor956• 13 years ago

1) Why should we help a company valued at over $1 billion dig itself out of a hole of its own making?

2) The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this.

neeee• 13 years ago

>The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. No. One out of the eight comments quoted mentions it, and the author does not.

unreal372• 13 years ago

I like the tone of Doc's post. Very positive and solution focused.

As for #2, it remains to be seen I guess how much % drop in AirBNB bookings are caused by this. It will be some number, but obviously I think they're prepared for it. I don't think this has anything to do with "unregistered hotels".

groundCode• 13 years ago

I like the tone of Doc's post as well, however, as a consumer, I don't think it's my problem to help a company out if they suck at serving their customer.....and if I don my entrepreneurial hat, the more AirBNB annoy people, the bigger the opportunity for a good competitor to pick up the pieces.

gojomo2• 13 years ago

Volume bookings via AirBnB are only illegal in some particularly authoritarian jurisdictions. Most places, those are within its "proper purpose".

Xylakant• 13 years ago

From the news that I've been following, those "particularly authoritarian jurisdictions" include about every country with some level of regulations for the hotel industry - which basically includes each and every european country and the USA.

blottsie• 13 years ago

> The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this.

You incorrectly assume here that the only people who rely on a high volume of guests are those who do so illegally. Many Airbnb hosts operate a vacation rental property that they own. And they often rely on the income that property generates. These people – the ones that often maintain the best vacation rentals Airbnb offers – face the most damage from a drop in bookings. And Airbnb should be very concerned about that.

aacook7• 13 years ago

Luckily Airbnb's success is based off revenue share. So if there is actually a drop in bookings, Airbnb has an interest in killing this feature.

My guess? They already tested it on a small subset of their users and it's working well. Furthermore, if they have a network of all verified and trusted users, the network is going to be incredibly strong.

edit: sp error

aacook7• 13 years ago

I disagree with your 2nd point. This seems like over generalizing. You're saying that every Airbnb host that is upset about this change is suddenly using Airbnb illegally? Definitely not true.

It sounds like the verification flow has some serious design/flow problems. If I'm an Airbnb host in a major city and I have an affordable and highly rated place, I'm likely to attract all kinds of guests: both sophisticated and unsophisticated. For example, the most frequented place on Airbnb in San Francisco has probably seen hundreds of guests from around the world: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/33577

Different people are different. Not everyone actually has a government issued ID. This does not mean they are necessarily illegal or untrustworthy. I think many people are going to freak out about these requirements... not just people without IDs, but average people who find the process intrusive. Do I have to answer security questions and upload my ID when booking a hotel? No.

However, maybe Airbnb has already tested this on a smaller random set of their listings and proven it doesn't reduce bookings.

philwelch2• 13 years ago

Don't hotels usually take your ID at the front desk when you check in?

nathan_f77• 13 years ago

No matter what you do, there's always going to be complaints. Verified ID is a seriously good idea. I would definitely feel safer hosting verified people. Of course, they might still be horrible guests, but that will be their last visit with any AirBnb host.

sdas7• 13 years ago

Good on ya. But it should be an option, not forced. If you only want to host people with "Verified ID", then just reject anybody who doesn't have it.

unreal372• 13 years ago

With a $1 million "burn your home down" guarantee, and future bad press on the line, AirBNB doesn't want to take the risk that you want to take.

signed0• 13 years ago

If I read the article correctly, hosts are still in control as to whether they will allow all guests or just verified. Did I misinterpret this?

Is the uproar over the mandate that a random 25% of users are now required to go through verification?

jacalata3• 13 years ago

It is an option. Last I heard, you could still advertise short term rentals on Craigslist, after all.

rurounijones• 13 years ago

I love the usual weaselly worded "We apologize if our changes caused you distress" automated response to her second email.

That kind of corporate lingo is what I expect from soulless corporations.

[EDIT]

To make it clear. She offered lots of suggestions on what other services they could use and instead of a personal "Thanks for that, we will investigate" they gave her the brush-off with an obviously automated email.

Pretty shoddy customer relations.

hkmurakami4• 13 years ago

Wasn't Airbnb the company where the founders took a special dividend using funds from one of the later VC rounds (which Ron Conway publicly objected to)?

That sounds like something leaders of soulless corporations would do.

cmbaus• 13 years ago

I hadn't heard this. Dividends are a great way to screw over option holders, who are often employees.

kiyoto• 13 years ago

No, it was Chamath who called them out (They later reconciled). http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiy... and http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palih...

triplesec4• 13 years ago

I think that was also Groupon, famously.

ryguytilidie• 13 years ago

I love how people think this is rare.

nitrogen• 13 years ago

PG himself suggested that investors should let founders cash out partially during investment rounds, so they're less uncomfortable about swinging for the fences: http://www.paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html

pvnick• 13 years ago

Is it possible that, being stuck between a rock and a hard place, they're trying to toe a thin tightrope (did I use that phrase correctly?) and, while well-intentioned, they may come off as a bit corporate?

danso• 13 years ago

> As a host, it is up to me to choose who I allow in my home. I like that I can decide how many requirements to place on my guests. Should I choose to place strict requirements, I get more protection and probably fewer bookings. I like having the choice. Airbnb just took the choice away from me and I’m not happy about it.

Before we get into arguments about the validity of libertarianism...I think it shouldn't be shocking that when a company becomes large (with more at stake), they have to act in ways that will be overbearing in comparison to what they were before.

The quoted complaint above could easily apply to, let's say, the Apple iOS store, in which decisions are made heavily in favor of playing it safe and clean. I would like to argue that I'm wise enough to make my own choices about downloading immoral/unpleasant apps...and I'm entitled to make that argument. However, I can't argue that this...ahem, proactive policy prevents a great many shit-fests that might otherwise arise were it not in place. And I really can't dispute that Apple so far been wildly successful in the app marketplace.

Likewise, from Airbnb's perspective, I can see why they've made the calculation that proactively preventing scammers is overall, a good business decision. Because a few disasters from slightly foolish customers is enough to doom the entire ship.

bradleyjg2• 13 years ago

How exactly does a LinkedIn or Facebook profile, much less a personal video, prevent scammers? All three of those are trivial to fake. On the other hand a public feedback system with persistent identities, which they already have is harder to game.

No, this is a ham fisted marketing initiative pretending to be about security. Why they didn't just buy 'likes' with coupons like every other scummy company out there, I don't know.

lbarrow• 13 years ago

It's actually not super easy to fake a Facebook or LinkedIn presence. Most services that use social media presence as an identity check ask questions like:

1. How long has your account been active?

2. Does your account have a human-like pattern of activity?

3. Do your social graphs overlap realistically? Are you Facebook friends with your LinkedIn connections?

Etc. It'd take an extremely patient scammer to fake that sort of data. It can be done, of course, it's not trivial.

gregr401• 13 years ago

The premise of the issue isn't that they are 'proactively preventing scammers', more to the joke that apparently Facebook and LinkedIn offer any level of verification other than enabling potential tunnels to data mine a users social connects. As mentioned towards the bottom of the article, there are plenty of eVerification services avail that minimize the potential for data about an account holder.

To note, the way airbnb has rolled this out is quite surprising (mandatory sampling of users, disrupting active reservations, etc). Starting to wonder if there are any decent competitors out there.

brightsize• 13 years ago

German clone of Airbnb, Wimdu: http://www.wimdu.com/ I almost booked with Wimdu in the past but was put off by the fact that they didn't escrow the security deposit. I was expected to hand it over to the host when I arrived, and in theory get it handed back to me when I left. I hope that Wimdu has fixed this.

stratosvoukel4• 13 years ago

Imo being able to choose your clients/guests (they pay you after all) however you like is immoral and it would be illegal if it was done from a hotel/ apartment rental company ... (at least in a lot of European countries). You should not be able to profile your customers in any way. If you dont like it, dont make money out of your apartment.

burgreblast• 13 years ago

EXACTLY. Simply imagine Holiday Inn or Hilton demanding we verify ourselves before renting a room. Who among you would defend them?

encoderer• 13 years ago

Generally, I feel people are too cynical. And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph at first made my eyes roll.

But the truth is, there are a lot of things we do online that require real, meaningful identity verification. You put your SSN and DOB in and the computer gives you a series of multiple-choice questions from items on your credit report. People are used to them. They work.

And at the least, why not offer the credit report ID verification as the backup, perhaps alongside this video? Seems to me it would really cover their bases: The free spirits who would sooner die than submit to a credit check can produce a video. The professional, 2-million-miler, harvard-law types wouldn't flinch at an identity check that they've done every time they opened a credit card or bank account or many investment accounts or used the US Treasury or IRS systems or a credit monitoring product or, the list goes on. There's just a nominal cost associated with these, and unlike applications for credit they do not impact a persons credit score.

I'm not sold, but maybe there's something to the reliance on Facebook and LinkedIn afterall?

s_baby• 13 years ago

I have neither. What am I supposed to do?

mwfunk• 13 years ago

Don't use a service that requires you to have one? Or make an account with one of them so you can use a service that requires you to have one? Seems pretty straightforward.

prodigal_erik• 13 years ago

> And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph

Even if they actually didn't set out to get it (unlikely), I have no doubt at all that they'll abuse it once they have it. Rule #1: spammers lie.

aacook7• 13 years ago

So many startups have screwed this up. It makes sense why everyone is skeptical.

But really, why do they need my LinkedIn? LinkedIn is something I do not use. At this point, I just auto-accept all contacts and never check it. I know Airbnb uses my Facebook connections to show my friends that I've stayed at a particular place. That, to me, is fine. But, most of my LinkedIn connections are random acquaintances. I asked a couple of my friends and it's the same for them: Facebook for closer connections, LinkedIn for garbage. I don't need my LinkedIn connections knowing all the Airbnb places I've stayed at.

I've stayed at 10+ Airbnb places and have perfect reviews. I also willingly (a couple weeks ago) uploaded my driver's license. Host now have a clear idea of me based on my license and past reviews. Do hosts really need to know my LinkedIn profile? Honestly, to me, it seems like Airbnb wants to build out its graph and social connections. Maybe not spam you, but the social connections feature is pretty powerful so I can see why they'd want more social connections.

I have more to say but this is getting long. My opinion on all this right now is that Airbnb is experiencing a supply/demand tilt (more demand than supply) and they can afford to weed out the "crappy" demand (even if it's my aunt using Airbnb for the first time).

triplesec4• 13 years ago

Inevitable as a company get bigger it likes bureaucracy more and wants to cover its ass over being sued for bad experiences.

We all hate Paypal for its overofficcious moneylaundering ID requests which, should its dBs be compromised could easily screw the finances of millions. Do we really want to give these people IDs?

Vivtek• 13 years ago

The difference there is that Paypal is required by law to make those ID requests. AirBNB is not.

triplesec4• 13 years ago

Oh quite right! This is why I'm entirely against this, whereas I just deeply hate Paypal's lack of customer service.

gojomo2• 13 years ago

In the middle of a recent trip, AirBnB asked me for more verification info to make a new reservation -- credit-report-based questions -- even though I'd already...

(1) been a well-reviewed AirBnB guest on multiple occasions;

(2) concluded transactions through them on more than one CC for those previous stays;

(3) linked my Facebook and LinkedIn profiles long ago.

Such verification questions can involve things like car loans from more than a decade ago, and on at least one of the questions I wasn't even sure I remembered the right answer.

Though I understand they have fraud concerns, I felt it kind of obnoxious to spring this new requirement on me in the middle of a trip, when I was depending on AirBnB working the same as before (and indeed as it had worked on my 1st AirBnB reservation of the same trip).

Had I been required to send a scan of some government ID, I'd have felt even more like they'd breached our prior understanding, without warning, at an inconvenient time.

lucisferre• 13 years ago

> Banks lose customer data all the time and they have some of the most stringent standards possible

Tell that to my maximum 6 digit, no special characters bank web login pin.

graue• 13 years ago

Interesting to read about the story behind this. I recently tried to use Airbnb to get a last minute spot in Boston. The most annoying part of the ID process was that it acted like everything was cool, let me browse the site, let me make a reservation and put in my credit card info, and only then told me to give them tons of extra info before they would process the reservation.

I actually tried to go through their process and it was quite draconian. They ask for tons of stuff. Last 4 of SSN was one part, and they also asked questions about streets I lived on years ago, specifically, which county those streets are in. They must have a contract with someone who has a database of this kind of stuff.

But I got through that and was hung up on the last step, "Online ID", which requires a Facebook account (don't use it under my real last name), LinkedIn account (don't have one), or recording an introduction video (not possible while I'm sitting in a busy coffeeshop, also seemed like a pretty absurd ask). At this point I wanted to bail out but there was no "Cancel Reservation" button anywhere and they had my CC info hostage. So I had to close my whole account.

By the way, this was an account I had previously used to book an Airbnb place with no problems, and got a positive review from the guy. The surprise ID requirements struck me as manipulative, as if they knew if they'd asked for all this stuff before I booked a night, I wouldn't have used their site. So they pretended they were going to hook me up with a room, then sprung this out of nowhere.

jrockway• 13 years ago

The "creepy questions" are a pretty standard identity verification scheme. If you ever open a bank or brokerage account online, you'll probably be asked these. They're used because they're simple and work reasonably well. Anyone can steal or guess the last four digits of your SSN or driver's license, but it's harder to learn random details of your life.

(Then again, I recently answered the creepy questions for a friend of mine, so it's not protection against someone you know stealing your identity.)

I don't know why Airbnb needs to know your identity, but I could come up with some reasons. Imagine someone signs up under your name as a host, and their first guests have their laptops stolen. Your name is going to appear on that police report, and that's a pain for you. If the whole fake identity scam can be nipped in the bud, though, this won't happen as often, making life easier for more than just Airbnb's users. I don't think that's a terrible thing.

In a business where you're having total strangers stay in your house, is it really an invasion of privacy to ask you to verify you are who you say you are? This isn't an online blogging service or something, after all.

amirmc• 13 years ago

"In a business where you're having total strangers stay in your house, is it really an invasion of privacy to ask you to verify you are who you say you are?"

Part of the complaint is that guests have been booking (and getting positive reviews) without such all-encompasing knowledge of said guest's personal history. Hosts have evidently been fine with this too. In other words, what problem is this change solving (because it's not solving the guest's problem and some hosts are arguing it reduces bookings for them).

If it were in the power of the host to ask Airbnb to hold additional information on guests, then the situation would be completely different. You could then decide for yourself how much knowledge you're willing to provide (as a guest) or how 'verified' you want your guests to be (as a host). That doesn't seem to be the case here.

JonnieCache• 13 years ago

>but it's harder to learn random details of your life

It's obviously not that hard, because airbnb are verifying the answers. I'm guessing any identity thief worth their salt has a way to buy rows from that dataset at a cheap rate.

bm98• 13 years ago

The "creepy questions" -- in the USA at least -- are just another revenue stream for the three credit reporting agencies. They (or third party companies paying them for the data) pull data from your credit report and then ask multiple-choice questions based on the data. It's absurdly insecure given the large number of people who have subscription access to credit reports (landlords, car dealerships, employers, etc.). Even more ridiculous is that the questions are based on data that is often false. A scammer who applies for a credit card in your name provides a false address; that false address is added to your credit report and now can become part of the identity verification scheme. And of course the onus is on you to fix the bad data held by these companies.

marcos123• 13 years ago

> but it's harder to learn random details of your life.

I wouldn't lean on that assumption for too much longer. It's becoming easier and easier for that to happen, especially when one naively gives out those random details to any form that pops up on their computer screen (...even if the creators of that form have a cool story about making amateur breakfast cereals).

jimworm• 13 years ago

As a nomad, those address questions would be impossible for me to answer. This is particularly relevant because in 2013 I've started using Airbnb 100% of the time. Any others like me hit by this requirement will have to stop using Airbnb altogether, and while it's certain that we'll be a very small minority of users, we might still add up to a significant percentage in lost revenue.

lawnchair_larry2• 13 years ago

Wow, I was planning to use them for the first time for a vacation in a few weeks. No way in hell they're getting my business now. Way more invasive than a hotel.

A video? Who seriously thought that this was a good idea?

mazzer• 13 years ago

Hotels unilaterally ask for ID and a credit card these days.

koide3• 13 years ago

It's hard to imagine how a hotel could bilaterally ask you for your ID :-)

And in any case, they don't ask you for a Facebook or LinkedIn account to spam you with besides your ID and credit card.

bambax2• 13 years ago

Some (ok, maybe most) hotels ask for an ID when you check in.

But I've never been to a hotel that asked for an ID just to make a reservation. I use booking.com, which is perfect BTW, and they never asked for an ID.

drharris2• 13 years ago

Yes, the equivalent would be your host asking to see your ID upon arrival. I don't think people have an issue sharing their identity with a single other person. A soulless corporation on the other hand...

lawnchair_larry2• 13 years ago

Which is nothing compared to social media accounts and a credit check.

aacook7• 13 years ago

Yes, but in person. They are not asking you to upload it online... something few people have ever done.

ranman3• 13 years ago

Am I the only person who thinks all of these people are overreacting?

guard-of-terra5• 13 years ago

How so? I genuinely don't have facebook or linkedin, I genuinely don't want to record a video (in english lol wtf?) with my personal details and I'll genuinely not use them ever if they start doing that to international customers.

They think they're unique but their business model is trivial to reproduce once they have alienated half of their audience.

ranman3• 13 years ago

Why are you so opposed to having your identify verified so that hosts know you're not a scammer? You couldn't give them even a library card with your photo on it or something? The ease-of-use of Airbnb is what makes everyone like it... I don't think that's super easy to replicate. I also don't think a quick ID check dramatically reduces the ease-of-use.

omonra3• 13 years ago

I'm with you. All these people strike me as entitled twats.

As a user, I would much rather deal with the hassle of verified ID than do business with guests/hosts that are unverified.

koide3• 13 years ago

The point is that the means of verification they're implementing are ludicrous. There are MUCH better ways to get a verified ID without causing this uproar, and that's why the only reasonable conclusion is that they are misleading their customers and they are after this for different reasons than the ones stated.

JacobAldridge• 13 years ago

Seems to me the bigger issue here is HOW they implemented this, not WHY they implemented it.

Yes, some people are asking that they personally be allowed to take the risk of hosting unverified people. As AirBNB continues to grow, I understand and agree why they won't let you do it - more cases of drug parties or robberies could ruin their business, and your business isn't worth as much to them as their business.

But requiring (if I understand it correctly) one of Facebook, LinkedIn, or a video? Telling you this ~80% of the way through a booking process? Implementing it with no notification (so people currently on holidays suddenly bump into the requirements)? These are the bigger issue.

I doubt they will cancel the current implementation plan in order to rethink a new one. But improving upon it - in particular with additional ways to verify identity - seems important.

onemorepassword2• 13 years ago

Airbnb's concept, however wonderful it may be when it does work, is full of practical and legal holes which are now beginning to emerge.

The big question is: can Airbnb close those holes without significantly reducing the usefulness of their service?

I very much doubt that. Hospitality is an industry with a long history, lots of regulation and self-regulation (which is not just corrupt government protecting incumbents), and disrupting that means tackling a huge range of issues an liabilities which Airbnb heavily oversimplifies.

I expect an increase in regulatory intervention, horror-stories in the media, lawsuits and Airbnb becoming increasingly more bureaucratic and complex in an effort to handle that.

onemorepassword2• 13 years ago

I wonder what part of this comment was a reason to slowban me?

atechnerd• 13 years ago

Deja vu when reading the Airbnb reply. Did they really repeat a paragraph, or is that an error in the blog post?

DigitalSea• 13 years ago

Sounds like the process Paypal have been using for a while. I recall having to send a scan of my passport, drivers licence and Visa card to them a while back to prove I am not a money launderer and using the service for legitimate purposes. While intrusive I am more inclined to trust Paypal than Airbnb for a couple of reasons. One of those being Paypal have been around longer, they've established a rapport and two, I either comply or lose any funds I have in my Paypal account and make it hard for others to send me money in the future.

These kinds of processes scare me mostly from a safety point of view, but also from a trust point of view. How do I know the person verifying my credentials on the other end isn't secretly funnelling my documentation off to a nefarious third party using it to get a loan in my name or steal my identity to commit a crime? This has trouble written all over it, surely there is another way? The step requiring LinkedIn or Facebook is just ridiculous, what if you don't use any of those services?

If a company like Airbnb wants to dig themselves a hole, why should it be up to us to help them get out of it? I won't be using the service any more because of these changes and I assume others won't either.

scrrr• 13 years ago

One person in that post said it right: "You want people to send you their photo ID / passport? Are you out of your *&#%& mind?"

I am not even sure if I am legally ALLOWED to send a copy of my ID anywhere in my country.

The right answer to a request from a company asking for such information is "F.U., no".

lysium3• 13 years ago

In Germany, you are not allowed to copy your personal ID document.

guard-of-terra5• 13 years ago

Airbnb is an inherently international business and there is no way this is going to work for around the globe customers.

In many countries people don't use facebook. Linkedin is a joke anyway. Where they do they're not used to authing with it. Where they don't you may use local social networks but they're often anonymous or don't provide api as rich. There is also this huge problem with languages: how are you going to read korean id in hangeul? how are you going to link airbnb name in latin with social network name in cyrillic? do you seriously expect people to be able to record videos in english that can't then be used to ridicule that people (they're going to be public, right?)

In many cultures people are just averse of posting private information about them on the web.

CaptainZapp• 13 years ago

  In many countries people don't use facebook

In my country people use Facebook just fine.

It's just that after Facebook more and more turned up the creepy volume to - for me - intolerable levels I chose to "delete" my Facebook account and don't plan to re-activate it ever again.

If your business relies on me having a Facebook account (or a specific piece of hardware) then I guess I'm not in the range of your targeted customers and we will never, ever do business together.

If you offer an (even more inconvenient) alternative I'm probably fine with that. For example: If your mobile boarding pass doesn't work with my device and I have to print it at an airport kiosk I'm fine with that. If I must have an iPhone to fly with your airline then I guess it's just not meant that we do business together.

guard-of-terra5• 13 years ago

That too. I've seen people annouce proudly they've left facebook, exactly the audience AirBnB wishes to serve.

hollerith2• 13 years ago

Having a Facebook or LinkedIn is not necessary for getting verified with Airbnb as long as you are willing to do other things.

When I helped a friend get verified, we provided a photo of his driver's license and did that thing which Paypal also does where Airbnb makes two sub-dollar deposits or withdrawals (I forget which) to our bank account, and we have to prove the bank account belongs to us by telling Airbnb the exact amounts of the deposits or withdrawals.

EDIT: s/emailed a photo/provided a photo/

uptown• 13 years ago

"When I helped a friend get verified, we emailed a photo of his driver's license..."

That sounds secure.

NameNickHN• 13 years ago

What I don't get is how is a video supposed to verify anything? Why did they pick loyal customers to do the verification? It would be more comprehensible if they required it from new customers. And lastly, why don't they use a real id confirmation service. Where I live we can go to the local post office, show some ID and that's it. No sending personal data anywhere.

bambax2• 13 years ago

Requiring users to record an "introduction video" is beyond parody; next step is probably to provide a front-and-back naked picture of yourself holding today's newspaper.

And you thought DHS was bad! And you thought "regulations" were bad! Let's get rid of it all! Let's disrupt!

But now, Facebook decides to police jokes according to vague claims by special-interest groups [1] and AirBnB requires its users to do a little dance for them before they can use their services.

Democracy has a lot of flaws, but constitutional rights and democratically voted laws, and a functioning judicial system, and well-run government agencies (I know, I know) are several orders of magnitude preferable to petty policies that grow in the mind of the average "community manager".

[1] https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-safety/controversial...

dwightgunning• 13 years ago

"Quit trying to mine data under the guise of trust." A commenter to the original AirBnB announcement.

So true and happens all the time.

mcintyre1994• 13 years ago

Wow, this could be interesting. Scaling this across the world, reliably verifying anybody in the world, seems like an extremely hard problem, especially with the restraint that people can't just walk away.

mike_esspe• 13 years ago

It's already a common practice in Russia to ask for ID during check-in. Why not ask all hosts to do it, it will have less friction for guests.

Lately, my Russian friend was trying to do a last minute reservation via Airbnb and they asked for verification. Russian users do not have facebook, they use vk.com, and instead of linkedin they have moikrug.ru. So she had to use a local alternative (sutochno.ru). Lost money for Airbnb.

nchuhoai• 13 years ago

I am building a trust platform for p2p marketplaces (https://www.credport.org) and while there have been many great points mentioned in this thread, I'd like to chime in as well.

In general, most of the critics seem to say one of the two:

1. I'm obviously trustworthy, just look at me.

2. I want to have choice, I want to decide whether to host someone unverified or not.

What people need to realize about trust in p2p marketplaces is that trust is irrelevant, it's the experience that matters. At the end of the day, it matters whether you get what you wanted, and if you didn't, well fuck, it must be Airbnb's fault. It's never the users fault. Think about it.

On eBay, people get scammed every day. Does anyone say "well, that's just the users fault"? No, everyone says "eBay is full of scammers, I will never do it again". Same with the AppStores/Software Downloads. It's mostly the user's fault for downloading malicious software, but the platform always gets blamed.

So what you do in this case, and what Airbnb is doing is to "clean" the platform, cause the last thing you want is to have another Methlab incident or become the next eBay

orangethirty• 13 years ago

I'm just waiting for the first AirBnB user that declines to leave the rental property. Eviction in some places is a really hard and long process.

toddmorey• 13 years ago

My question: What exactly is AirB&B trying to solve for here? Is it safety for the host? Legal requirements? Payment fraud and chargebacks?

As mentioned in the article, it feels like increased verification requirements should be an option available to to the host rather than a universal requirement.

One important lesson learned: no one wants to record a brief video as a step of any verification process.

aacook7• 13 years ago

Agreed the video is somewhat ridiculous. It could be a supply/demand tilt (more demand than supply: weed out the crappy demand). It could also be a long term move. If they're able to have all verified people in the network, they'll have basically the most powerful local network ever created.

mbesto• 13 years ago

Ah my friends, this is what happens when you reach scale. It means you have to protect against every little black swan that comes along (mainly for PR reasons) which overburdens the rest of the white swans.

This reminds me of all of the companies trying to compete against PayPal, who tell themselves and customers that "We'll do it better this time I swear!". I can't wait until they try to reach the size of PayPal and realize their whole business model is based solely on fraud prevention. Something not easily, dare I say possibly, solved by any algorithm.

This is also why I like 37Signals, since they let their customers outgrow their software. For every project manager that says "ugh basecamp doesnt do this, I need something else", 37Signals quietly says "see ya later, you'll be back in a year!"

stratosvoukel4• 13 years ago

A big concern of mine is that this verification process does not seem inclusive to transgender people. Obviously the official documentation of these people would not necessarily match their online profiles , or in case of video their appearance. Thoughts?

moheeb• 13 years ago

No one really cares about transgender people. They make up such a small percentage of the population that they're not worth worrying about. In nearly all cases they are forced into the existing system/structure, unless legally required otherwise.

stratosvoukel4• 13 years ago

Do you think that this is right or wrong? I think that it is wrong. Also the assumption that they make such a small percentage is wrong.

ISeemToBeAVerb• 13 years ago

I think AirBnB has every right to ask its users to verify their identity in some way. It just so happens, the methods they chose were maybe not the best options for their UX.

I mean, I don't see how you can go half way on this. Leaving the choice up to the host doesn't protect anyone. It's easy to say "hey, I don't want to bother with this.", but the minute something DOES go wrong, who are they going to blame? AirBnB.

They have to cover their ass, simple as that. It sucks, but we live in a litigious society that loves to transfer blame.

If you were in a position where you had to make a tough choice and disappoint some people to protect your family(or company), you'd do it too.

As far as data mining goes... what's new? Are there any massive scale online businesses that aren't looking for new ways to mine their users for marketing and business data? I don't like it either, but I can't say I didn't expect it.

freyr• 13 years ago

I objected when a roommate wanted to rent out our living room on Airbnb. I realize that the probability is extremely low that we'd end up with a deranged lunatic in our house. But for me, that tiny possibility (and more so the irrational stress that accompanies it) far outweighs the benefit making a few extra bucks on the side.

So would I reconsider using Airbnb now that they have Verified IDs? Probably not. The root of the issue is that I don't want strangers in my house while I'm asleep. Even if Airbnb has their info on file, they're still strangers to me.

This move likely alienates many of their core users, while offering no appeal to non-users like me. Perhaps there is another segment this appeals to -- users who are concerned about the possibility of petty crime, and who feel this would be a deterrent or would aid with legal recourse?

stefantalpalaru• 13 years ago

Bankruptcy is normal in a free market. Let's let Airbnb disappear and make room for better companies.

Travelchick• 13 years ago

Wow... what on earth are they thinking? And what on earth are some people who have commented thinking, to support this?

I go to hotels, hostels, couch-surf, etc; I know people who rent properties with varying degrees of seriousness and involvement, and couch-surfing hosts. I interact with people who do these things on every continent. Airbnb is ridiculously out of line; it's requiring more than authoritarian governments do, much less any of its competition.

crucini• 13 years ago

I don't know much personally about airbnb.

I wonder how many bad incidents airbnb has facilitated? Searching for "airbnb robberies" seems to point to only one incident (San Francisco) where the victim blogged about it.

But generally we shouldn't expect to hear about crimes facilitated by airbnb. Neither the cops nor the victims have an incentive to publicize it.

airbnb may have paid out a lot in hush money and settlements.

So, while this new identity scheme is unwelcome and intrusive, it may be the only way forward for airbnb.

jspiral• 13 years ago

I think i was an involuntary early adopter of this process, my experience was that the ID upload kept failing and then broke the connection to my linkedin and facebook accounts. Support wasn't able to help, beyond suggesting I make a video.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284

whynotbalu• 13 years ago

Anyone else surprised at the fact that this poor UX is happening at a company and founding team that pride themselves in their design roots? Wtf.

zephyrnh• 13 years ago

Hey everyone, I'm one of the engineers who worked on Verified ID. I'm going to keep reading all the comments people leave, but rather than respond to all of them on here, I've written up some of my thoughts on our blog: http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/

I'd just like to stress that this doesn't address all the issues brought up, since some of them require more time, but I'm happy to answer more questions if you leave a comment on my post.

Let’s help Airbnb rebuild the bridge it just burned

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