In Silicon Valley, Recruiting Clashes With Immigration Limits

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/business/12immig.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

by jey • 17 years ago

54 64 17 years ago

pj2• 17 years ago

There are lots of great programmers in the United States, they just want to be paid more than immigrants, so the companies lobby congress to allow them to import more cheap softare factories.

It's the same at every level of society.

dustineichler• 17 years ago

You speak the truth, but hesitate to enumerate on the reality.

jey• 17 years ago

Sure, cheap idiots shouldn't be allowed to immigrate into the USA. I'm totally against the trend of mass produced know-nothing "programmers" who were imported into the US in the late 90's and early 2000's. But there's a lot of legitimately intelligent and capable people out there, and it's in our best interest to try and get them to play for Team USA.

boundlessdreamz2• 17 years ago

If you had actually bothered to read the article, you will find that the person featured has been educated in US from when he was 14. He went to Harvard. Now do you want such a person to be just sent back because he is an "immigrant" or that his skill and intelligence be recognized and make it such that it is easy for him to work in US, contributing to the US economy.

The US attracted the best and the brightest. If you insist on sending them back because they are "immigrants" then the loss is not just theirs.From the article "Many innovators in Silicon Valley come from overseas; 42 percent of engineers with master’s degrees and 60 percent of those with engineering Ph.D.’s in the United States are foreign-born."

Do you know why Chinese and Indians population in Universities are increasing? Because in those cultures being a geek is cool, unlike in US. In China and US, the topper in the school is the super star unlike in US where it will be the college football captain. The toppers from such places come to US because the US universities are far ahead in higher education. But if you send these people back, this lead in education will slowly evaporate as the best students go back to their country instead of staying on and becoming entrepreneurs and professors.

boundlessdreamz2• 17 years ago

Thinking about it, the founder visa idea that pg proposed is aimed at the kind of people like the guy featured in the article.

code_devil2• 17 years ago

I came in 2001(18 yrs) for my BS in Comp Sc and I am currently in my H1-B. The Green Card process is long and far away, so I don't even think about it. However, I see a few drawbacks of being on H1:

i. It hampers my capability to jump jobs to risky startups, because if that startup goes bust, I need to find a job in 2 months to stay in the country. Especially with a recessionary season, it adds to the risk while your existing employer is pretty strong.

ii. I am always looking for avenues to work on Ideas, and I do that too. But, because I need to be employed to maintain my Visa Status, I can only devote my evenings and weekends.

iii. I am also worried about the Laws (Immigration and other) that may prevent me from having my own venture etc.

I have been in the US for close to 10 years(8 years now and 2 years when I was a Kid). So, I have lived most of my decision making, understanding the world, ups/downs of life here in the US and I feel really connected to this country and really love it. I even pay good amount of Tax dollars plus work for a US company that works towards the growth of the US economy even in this downturn. But my fate still lies on the Immigration Policy.

Another point I wanted to mention was about my experience in College. In my freshman year I realized hanging out with kids that went to Highschool here that being Smart in school equates to being a Geek, which is not considered Hip and Cool. On the contrary back home in India where I grew up, being smart(not necessarily Geek) was considered Cool and everyone wants to be friends with the Smart Kid. Luckily, it worked out good for me as I had a solid academic background from India and then had cool friends out here.

pj2• 17 years ago

Actually, if you had bothered to read the article, you'd have seen that the person featured was totally legal in the United States. He wasn't "sent back."

He chose to move to Canada because his WIFE was not legal in the U.S. and she didn't have any skills to import.

jamiequint4• 17 years ago

This is pretty much true at any level of supply (increase supply and the price will drop). You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it.

From talking to my other friends with startups in the Bay Area it is apparent that there are not enough good engineers here. I had a conversation last weekend with one of my friends who always struggles to find good Ruby engineers, even at above market prices, and using every recruitment method available.

As the founder of a company originally started to help companies hire technical talent I've seen this firsthand. Everyone is frustrated with recruiters piping them lots of unqualified resumes, Dice, Monster, and Craigslist also provide high volume, but often low quality. Even the niche boards are underperforming.

If there are really "lots of great programmers" in the US where are they? I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them.

Maybe part of the problem is the vast difference between "decent" and "great" in terms of on-the-job performance and the unwillingness of many companies around here to settle for less.

mynameishere• 17 years ago

You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it.

You're so wrong. The whole purpose of bar exams and similar certification requirements in most trades is to limit supply. Almost every profession does this in one way or the other, except engineers.

menloparkbum4• 17 years ago

I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them.

People say this all the time but $150K is a rare salary for a programmer. You have to work at Google for years to be paid that much as a base salary. If a company is offering $150K but can't hire anyone it usually means the company sucks. I.e. it's an overfunded VC time bomb, a boring telecom/security job or something semi-shady.

owkaye• 17 years ago

"I had a conversation last weekend with one of my friends who always struggles to find good Ruby engineers ..."

Well then, doesn't it see that perhaps he is creating his own limitation by focusing on Ruby?

Just because a particular language may have too few experts in the USA does not mean there's a shortage of qualified programmers in other languages! I'm an exceptional programmer in the language I know best, but it is not Ruby. Your friend would not consider hiring me because of this too I'll bet -- yet I could probably build his site twice as fast as the best Ruby programmer.

You live with the limitations you impose upon yourself.

nostrademons5• 17 years ago

'If there are really "lots of great programmers" in the US where are they? I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them.'

They already have jobs that they're happy with.

ShardPhoenix2• 17 years ago

The problem here is that they want a candidate that is already perfect for the job and can jump straight in, and are unwilling to do any sort of training. Hence they let a position stay open for months out of irrational fear of spending a few weeks on training a smart but imperfect candidate.

edit: also, if there's really a 10x difference in productivity between the worst and the best programmers, isn't a truly great programmer theoretically worth more like 300-400k a year, rather than 150k?

makecheck2• 17 years ago

What bothers me about the immigration caps is that they appear to be completely arbitrary, as opposed to being in tune with the industries they "serve" or based on some up-to-date metrics. At the very least, they are not rechecked frequently enough.

Is it really good for the economy when a company is unable to hire 10 people, because of a "cap" that sounds like it was pulled out of a congressman's left ear? They market these restrictions as trying to "save U.S. jobs", but ironically the caps will kill U.S. jobs when whole companies fail to remain competitive.

lutorm• 17 years ago

They are indeed arbitrary. Moreover, there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received.

Since the minimum requirement for an H1B is just a bachelor's degree, it seems hard to motivate that all those are essential. It seems the process could be improved by either ranking the applications by merit or instead of a quota establishing a higher minimum standard such that those accepted are really outstanding. Another alternative would be to simply uncap the category for those with US advanced degrees -- that cap truly makes no sense. (I should disclose that I'm biased here -- I was denied an H1B last year because of the quota.)

That said, none of that would help the person in the article. The simple change of letting H1B dependents work would fix that.

furburger3• 17 years ago

there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received

okay, all H1-B holders who want their applications held up for a year while a reasonable basis for comparison is accumulated, raise their hands

anamax• 17 years ago

> What bothers me about the immigration caps is that they appear to be completely arbitrary, as opposed to being in tune with the industries they "serve" or based on some up-to-date metrics.

They're not arbitrary, they're just not aimed at a goal that you recognize.

Always remember that the first priority of a congress critter is to get re-elected.

wallflower• 17 years ago

I work with many Indian co-workers, each in various statuses of their citizenship process from H1-B/green card/naturalized. I can honestly say that, as someone born in the U.S., I don't truly appreciate what it means to hold U.S. Citizenship, even after seeing the paperwork/"identured-servitude" to sponsoring company stuff I've seen. In America, the freedom to quit your job and find a new one, does not necessarily translate to those of H1-B status.

makecheck2• 17 years ago

Those on visa:

- Typically do not quit their jobs (and fear losing them), because their next employer must be found quickly and be willing to sponsor their stay. If they cannot find such an employer, they must leave the country.

- Run a (small) risk every single time they travel that they will not be allowed back into the country, to some extent at the discretion of a border guard.

- Must jump through hoops just to have family members present, and there have been cases where stupid things happen (like wife is allowed in, but one of two children is not; or, the family members are granted entry at completely different times that may be months apart).

- Are charged huge fees for government forms and by the lawyers who are often necessary to prepare forms (costs which might be covered by their company, if they're lucky).

- Can wait years...and years...and years...for a green card, for no apparent reason. The government can be silent for many months, and only periodically ask for more information when the application reaches the next stage. Oh, and the information prepared in advance for each stage, such as a medical exam, can expire if they don't reach it soon enough.

Most of these steps, in my opinion, are not really "helping", they are just adding bureaucracy and causing unnecessary frustration for human beings who are trying to live their lives.

potatolicious8• 17 years ago

Your second point is the most salient for me - I've worked in the US on a J-1 visa and will be returning soon on a TN... going home to see my folks is a concept that scares the bejeesus out of me.

Something most Americans don't fully appreciate is just how bad their border situation is - power-tripping customs officers who will turn a non-citizen around for no reason at all. Unreasonable searches, rudeness, and downright being an asshole.

I cannot recall a single instance of crossing the US border where the customs officer was courteous. When I crossed via Vancouver airport, there was an elderly gentleman who had trouble walking, and was shuffling slowly up to the counter when called. The officer in charge berated him as he walked to the counter, and insulted his inability to walk.

This is what we, non-Americans, deal with when we visit your country. FIX THIS.

queensnake• 17 years ago

Well, they have that freedom in India, of course.

code_devil2• 17 years ago

Oh yes, definitely, that option is there for us.

But sometimes when the immigrants(like me) have lived a major part of his youth life in a different culture and adjusted there with the society, people, etc, they tend to feel associated with the new country. (I think it all depends on the age you came to the country)

I think the US immigration system needs a new and improved modern look. I would not deny the fact that certain companies/people do exploit the H1-B Visa due to loopholes in it. This definitely brings a bad name to entire group and also puts into question the validity of the H1-B program and I am totally with my American Citizen's on that, but in certain situation they do need foreign talent. The H1-B program needs a fine tuning.

gamble2• 17 years ago

Considering how often Canada is mentioned in this article, they don't dwell on why it was so much easier for the engineer and his wife to get into Canada. (A fate worse than death, apparently.)

The key difference between our systems is that Canada issues residency visas, not temporary work visas. Once you have your Canadian permanent residency visa you can work for any employer. Immigrants aren't shackled to a sponsor, so they don't have the same motivation as H1-Bs to accept below-market wages and working conditions.

In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled. There is even a fast-track classification for US H1-B holders.

The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly.

chancho• 17 years ago

"In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled."

Care to speculate on the reason for this discrepancy, given that the US and Canada have similar family reunification programs? I mean, you say that most of the US's unskilled immigrants come through the family reunification program, but then go on to say that Canada has a similar program so I don't see how that explains the difference.

pcc• 17 years ago

Afaik there is a quota, something like 60:40 economically active to non-economically active; so priorities are firstly skilled workers (or where there are shortages), then most immediate family, and lastly other family (eg parents, grandparents).

Also should perhaps be pointed out that Canada does in fact issue temporary work visas too (not just residency visas), and then there would in fact be constraints on staying with an employer etc. Depending on where one applies from, this is often a faster process than residency; and from that there are avenues such as the provincial nominee program, that allow for expediting the residency process.

gamble2• 17 years ago

Canada doesn't have a quota system like the US, but priority is given to skilled immigrants and their immediate relatives. A skilled immigrant can get a permanent residency visa in 1-3 years, whereas a grandparent might need 5-10 years. In the US, the quota system is disproportionately biased in favor of relatives - something like 70% of all immigrants. The only path for skilled immigrants is H1-B, which has an annual cap of 65,000 visas.

For example, Canada issued about 250,000 PR visas last year. 150,000 went to skilled workers and entrepreneurs, whereas only 65,000 went to family members. (Of which, 44,000 were spouses)

The statistics are here if you're curious: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2008/...

potatolicious8• 17 years ago

I am the textbook example of Canadian immigration done right, I think. My parents came to Canada on the skilled immigration track. My father is a successful DBA in a major Canadian company, and my mother is an entrepreneur for arts and crafts supplies. Both pay oodles of taxes to the government (a lot more than the average Canadian anyhow), and both contribute to their communities.

Out of their kids, one is an engineer and the other is a PhD researcher in biology.

I remember my parents applying for immigration to the US. It was a long shot, but it was our first choice. Obviously we didn't make it, and looking at how we turned out I honestly believe that it was America's loss.

joe_the_user• 17 years ago

Double ditto to the parent...

"The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly."

Say the above magic incantation three times and the shills turn to smoke and drift away ...

scott_s• 17 years ago

To Mr. Berry, 50 — who lives in Sacramento, where he was born — it is unfathomable that Google, which receives one million résumés a year, cannot find enough qualified Americans.

Drawing on my own personal experience, this is flawed reasoning. His argument might hold for rank-n-file programming jobs, but the Indian native profiled in the article does not fill a rank-n-file job. The second-best candidate for his job is likely an order of magnitude less qualified.

I'm in a CS department at a large state university. I've done an internship in the research division of a large company that depends on innovation to survive. Most of my colleagues are foreign-born. In the case of the company, if those colleagues weren't employed, the work wouldn't get done. These people have unique skills and expertise - that was, not coincidentally, honed at American universities. Filling their positions with the closest qualified American you can find wouldn't result in a slight delay. The project they're on would collapse.

geebee2• 17 years ago

I agree with you in the short term. But I think that the long term absence of employable Americans may be caused, in part, by the programs that make it easy to hire foreign nationals instead of Americans in engineering and science.

There are a lot of really smart Americans working in law, finance, medicine, and so forth. Do you think these folks are too dumb to work in software? Or are they just rationally responding to a market glut, driven in part by the presence of the H1B program?

I think our policy has driven young Americans out of engineering. To just consider the few Americans who did get these degrees is shortsighted. You have to consider the eighth graders, high school students, and first year college students who have been deterred from entering the field. Because we controlled the wages of engineers with a visa program, but not finance or legal professionals, we deterred our own from going into these fields (creating a more severe shortage, necessitating more visas, creating an even worse shortage, until we had finally reached the point where Americans were no longer even remotely interested in this field).

Basically, America "foreignized" engineering to the point where we no longer have a home grown, self sustaining engineering profession. This has left us extremely vulnerable - even if we do offer the visas, there's no guarantee we can staff these jobs in the US anymore.

By the way, I do think that a robust home-grown engineering field would be enhanced by the presence of many foreign born practitioners. But I think we pushed it to the point where actively undermined the careers of young Americans in engineering, and the next wave of students voted with their feet.

Yes, allow in talented engineers. No, don't leave the level so high that Americans are deterred. A bit of a shortage that causes wage growth and stimulates interest would be a good thing.

Just remember: once bitten, twice shy.

nostrademons5• 17 years ago

I went to a liberal arts college where 50% of students never take a math or hard science course. Many of them are lawyers or financiers (well, ex-financiers ;-)) now.

I don't think this is at all a rational response to economic incentives. There was just a thread among a bunch of young lawyers in the alumni network, giving advice to another alum who was thinking of going to law school. They seem significantly less satisfied with their jobs as lawyers than I do with mine as an engineer. They don't make appreciably more money either. Many of them would love to do engineering - if it didn't involve math. If you ask them why they didn't learn more math in high school & college then, almost all will say that at some point, they fell of the train and just "didn't get" math.

I think the problem is more that good engineers are too successful. They have every incentive to remain an engineer and zero incentive to train the next generation. This has gone on for about two generations, which means that the pipeline of home-grown American talent is just about dry.

I would kinda like to teach. I come from a family with three generations of teachers on my mother's side. I like working with kids. But there is no possible way that I could rationalize giving up a six-figure Google job where I can get in to work at 11:00, the feed me, I get cool data to play with, and everyone sees my work, for a $30k/year teaching job where I work from 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM, have homework, and deal with parents who threaten to sue me.

I think a major difference between Asian cultures and here is that teaching is a high-status profession in Asia. Here, the assumption is that people become teachers because they can't get hired anywhere else, and they're paid accordingly. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as everyone who can get hired elsewhere chooses to work elsewhere, and the only math/science teachers you get are the ones that can't hack it in industry or academia (& a couple saints that just don't want to work there, for any amount of money).

gaius3• 17 years ago

Because we controlled the wages of engineers with a visa program, but not finance or legal professionals, we deterred our own from going into these fields

This is the key, really. Why should only engineering in general and computer programming in particular be "special"? Why isn't the US importing medical doctors (for example) hand over fist? There is a very deliberate attempt to treat programming as not one of the "professions" but as labour.

mahmud• 17 years ago

Stories like these are often a pretext for pushing laws that flood the U.S. market with cheap foreign labor. If you're hurting for a niche expertise and can't "find" someone here, fine, open an office in wherever you think the grass is greener talent-wise. Google can afford that, right?

I think I have a better use for my startup capital than an immigration lawyer; plenty of good people here, I mean, after all, they only built the greatest economy in the world.

If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas. Your ass will be chewed by local taxes, foreigner taxes and nationalist laws. And I say this as a _recent_ U.S. national; I came here with just a carry-on bag and $50 when I was 16.

neuro• 17 years ago

greed is downvoting you

potatolicious8• 17 years ago

"If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas."

The failings of other, less-wise countries is not an excuse to fail along with them. They are xenophobic and protectionist, and turn away talent that can increase their nation's competitiveness... the US should not make that same mistake.

And keep in mind that a disproportionate number of big players who "built the greatest economy in the world" are themselves immigrants. Your argument that home-grown talent alone will suffice holds no water - historically the US has always relied on heavy talent import, and there is nothing wrong with this.

varun• 17 years ago

This is a great article. And thanks to jey for posting this. On a side note, reading it I found out that Sanjay is based in Toronto currently, which is where I am, so I just reached out to him and would be chatting with him a bit more about startups, immigration, etc soon. Small world, and thanks HN! :)

In Silicon Valley, Recruiting Clashes With Immigration Limits

Related Stories