Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

http://gigaom.com/2013/04/11/why-i-have-issues-with-mark-zuckerbergs-fwd-us/

by ssclafani • 13 years ago

67 42 13 years ago

gonehome• 13 years ago

Not sure I understand the point of this article.

Is it that trying to improve reform regarding immigration with work visas in tech is too limited?

It rambles a bit at the beginning and then alludes to hard labor jobs, but doesn't really have any clear organization or discernable purpose.

jonnathanson• 13 years ago

I think saying that the tech industry is only a small fraction of our total economy (and the world economy in general). It's a huge growth engine, but most of the jobs and companies out there aren't tech related. If we place too much of an emphasis on recruiting engineers, we risk shutting out other skilled (and unskilled) immigrants.

Plenty of immigrants come to America with little more than a strong work ethic and a dream. They may have been too poor or disadvantaged to have afforded college, let alone an engineering degree, in their native countries. Hell, some of their native countries may not even have such opportunities. If we're restricting our search to highly skilled, highly educated workers, we're discriminating against everyone else who wants to participate in the American Dream.

Lest we assume these people are necessarily undesirable, we should be reminded of the fact that many of our most successful and quintessentially "American" companies were founded by originally unskilled immigrant laborers. Andrew Carnegie is perhaps the most famous example. His family emigrated to the US from Scotland, dirt poor and uneducated. His first job was as a messenger boy. He grew, of course, to become one of America's wealthiest and most productive captains of industry. He didn't have the status "captain of industry" before applying to enter the US. He gained that status in the US, via the opportunities afforded by the US to someone of his work ethic and intelligence. (And even the less-than-Carnegian immigrants of the world fill crucial roles in our economy).

Now, I disagree with the author in that he thinks a focus on engineers is necessarily a zero-sum game: that placing an emphasis on skilled workers precludes unskilled workers. It doesn't have to. I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater on Zuckerberg's argument, just because it's limited in scope. There's probably a lot more help than harm done by the sorts of reforms the group is seeking.

mjmahone17• 13 years ago

No, it's that the vast majority of immigrants are not working in tech. The vast majority of Americans are not working in tech. We have something like 11 million undocumented immigrants: their staying in the US should not be contingent on them being a part of the new business scene.

Furthermore, why should the US be encouraging technologists to immigrate here, when fundamentally those immigrants are in the business of putting other people (Americans and immigrants both) out of work? Yes, this is great for Silicon Valley, and probably is good for NYC, but what about for Iowa and Nebraska?

benackles2• 13 years ago

You're right that a vast majority of immigrants are not working in technology. However, I disagree with you that we shouldn't encourage immigration. The United States was built by immigrants. A majority of Americans are only a couple generations removed from being immigrants themselves. There's a good chance that you are as well. Many of the most innovative and industrious people were immigrants and not only in technology. The impact of sensible immigration policy that creates more tax payers (employers and/or employees) and greater transparency is good for the economy at large whether in technology or not. There is a risk to technology "putting other people...out of work", but that's irrelevant to whether they pay taxes in the United States or in another country.

colevscode• 13 years ago

This seems crazy to me. Right now those Nebraskans are competing with tech workers in other countries for tech jobs. If we bring more of those workers here, then 1) the competition will happen on US soil where we can ensure the playing field is fair and 2) an influx of well-paid immigrants will create more jobs for non tech-workers in support or service industries. Any way you slice it, having more tech workers in america is better than the current trend of sending jobs overseas.

The only folks that might be harmed by this immigration shift are the tech elites here that command sky-high salaries.

27182818284• 13 years ago

Nebraska and Iowa have growing tech scenes as well. Obviously it is nowhere close to NYC and Silicon Valley, but it isn't all farmland out here either, if that's what you were thinking.

Off the top of my head: http://www.hudl.com/ http://www.travefy.com/ http://www.dwolla.com/ http://www.archrival.com/ http://www.votertide.com/ and even less-traditional sites such as http://www.occupytogether.org/

benackles2• 13 years ago

The article isn't condemning the cause of immigration reform, but rather shining a light on the fact that the most powerful voices are too narrowly focused. Technology visionaries seem to be overwhelmingly focused on self-serving initiatives in the name of economic growth.

The reality is immigration reform needs to be felt throughout the economy, not simply towards engineers and knowledge workers. It's important for business leaders to stand up for immigration reform, but it would be better if they recognized the issue in a more holistic way. The economy is much larger than what is perceived within the Valley.

Om Malik is one of the few journalists I trust within the bubble of Silicon Valley. Part of the reason this article has a lot of resonances is because he's a dissenting immigrant who understands the values of technology and startups.

dsl• 13 years ago

I find it interesting that Facebook wont hire a kid with a degree from a community college here in the US, but will fight tooth and nail to hire someone with a degree from an Indian college that Mark probably couldn't pronounce the name of.

mindstab• 13 years ago

You have anything to back that up? Don't they have an interview process that purports to determine actual candidate viability? are you saying merely being from the US AND having not a big name uni degree precludes you from even getting that far? Seems oddly weird and short sighted of their HR

kajecounterhack• 13 years ago

How is it interesting? Credentials matter. They're one of multiple metrics any knowledge-driven company uses to find the best to fill roles. Some community-college educated kid is unlikely to have the right skills to fill roles FB or any other tech company is looking for.

Even if the community college kid did get the interview (and their resume isn't immediately filtered out) good luck on that without advanced education. It wouldn't be impossible but definitely hard. Way hard.

arindone• 13 years ago

Data? Source?

johnnyb9• 13 years ago

"Leading experts on the STEM workforce, including Richard Freeman of Harvard, Michael Teitelbaum of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Paula Stephan of Georgia State University, Hal Salzman of Rutgers, Lindsay Lowell of Georgetown, and Norman Matloff of the University of California-Davis, have said for years that the US produces ample numbers of excellent science students. In fact, according to the National Science Board’s authoritative publication Science and Engineering Indicators 2008, the country turns out three times as many STEM degrees as the economy can absorb into jobs related to their majors."

http://www.cjr.org/reports/what_scientist_shortage.php?page=...

chucknthem• 13 years ago

If a kid who only went to community college (or no tertiary education at all) has the skills to be a great programmer and can pass the interview, sure Facebook would hire them. It is harder to get noticed without a degree, so they might have to do more to show it by contributing to open source projects, winning programming contests or being referred by an employee, but once they're in the loop, it's fair game.

onedev• 13 years ago

That's simply not true. Facebook will hire anyone who they think is awesome and shows promise. There are many people that work at Facebook who don't even have a degree (the CEO for one...). The culture comes from the top, and Mark recognizes that you don't necessarily need to have a degree to be awesome at what you do because of his own experiences.

In fact, a friend of mine quit college after his Freshman year to go work at FB. He has no degree.

namityadav• 13 years ago

Why should "Can I pronounce the name of the college?" be a factor in who is the right candidate for a job?

snowwrestler• 13 years ago

Zuckerberg is not in a bubble...he has been meeting with immigration policy experts for years. He understands his role in the national immigration debate, and he is playing it very well.

Many people have the goal of comprehensive immigration reform. To get it accomplished will take a lot of pushing from a lot of different directions.

Zuckerberg, as the CEO of one of the most famous "new economy" innovative companies, is in the perfect position to talk about high-skilled workers, which is a component of comprehensive reform that will help Republicans accept the bill. He has a ton of personal credibility on this aspect of immigration. FWD.us aggregates other people with similar credibility.

He does not have a ton of credibility on issues like re-training former textile workers, or low-skill jobs, or illegal immigrants. If he tried to lobby on those issues he would be dismissed as a typical grandstanding California liberal. There are plenty of other people and organizations--with more credibility--pushing on those aspects of immigration reform.

rdudekul• 13 years ago

The article seems baseless and a little sensationalistic. Keeping post graduates and PhDs from American universities who have job offers here makes sense to me. There are genuinely creative/productive individuals with job offers, waiting for but unable to get H1B visas. I appreciate Zuckerberg's initiative and hope we will see a change in immigration policy soon.

jmspring• 13 years ago

If Zuck, as you claim, understands his role in the national immigration debate, he should also understand his limitations. As you point out, those include retraining and low-skilled jobs and he should be reaching out to others to provide a story around those issues. That populace is by far greater than the number impacted by H1Bs -- though H1Bs impact many knowledge workers that never adapted as technology necessitated.

hashset• 13 years ago

Thank you for so eloquently pointing out the elephant in the room that I've been too scared to speak about myself.

chacham15• 13 years ago

I think that the point the author was trying to make is that Mark Zuckerberg has a selection bias due to the fact that the people that he is around are generally similar (highly educated, college grads, etc.). Therefore, his view on the world is skewed towards that bias.

I think that this is true, but not just of him. If you were to talk to some of the low income families, they would probably have the reverse bias. The disparity between Zuckerbergs income and the average would tend to support the author, but that depends on how well Zuckerberg realizes and compensates for the bias. I'll leave this to be answered in the future.

emiliobumachar• 13 years ago

Beware of the Nirvana Fallacy!

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallaci...

joe-mccann• 13 years ago

Wait, so Om Malik has yet another reason to bash Zuck? I'm shocked.

supercanuck• 13 years ago

I don't think I would feel so conflicted about this immigration policy if I didn't feel like American's weren't getting a raw deal with regards to High School Education, costs of higher education, costs of healthcare, lack of 401(k) funding.

I get that labor is simply a fixed cost to be minimized, but it feels like legacy costs of the system are hurting the ability of those to compete.

andrewflnr• 13 years ago

Does everyone who starts a political group have to work on or state an opinion on every problem connected to whatever broad policy category they're worried about? No, that would be crazy. It's okay if Zuck only cares about (or only makes noise about) skilled immigrants. Part of the reason we have a democracy is so people can watch out for their own interests. It's not as if there's no one speaking out for unskilled immigrants, and if there wasn't it wouldn't be Zuck's fault or anyone else's fault who only chooses to speak out on some other specific issue.

I have no particular love for Mark Zuckerberg, but really, there's nothing to see here. The system is working.

hobb0001• 13 years ago

It's interesting how its always management that wants immigration reform; not the workers. On the one hand, it is management that does most of the hiring and are the ones tasked with finding talent. On the other hand, they're also tasked with keeping budgets low...

trustfundbaby• 13 years ago

> It's always interesting how its always management that wants immigration reform, not the workers

I'm curious to know how you arrived at this conclusion? How many h1-b workers or students on f-1 visas have you actually spoken with that do not want immigration reform, because I can tell you that I've lived that life and know close to a hundred of those people and even though its a small sample size I don't know any of them that think the current state of immigration with respect to skilled workers is okay.

kozikow• 13 years ago

One of his arguments in my opinion is invalid. He tries to suggest that if USA would simply invest in education, especially in middle America, then USA would produce enough engineers to not have to import engineers from abroad.

However, my view is that not everyone, regardless of education, can be good software engineer. Almost all software engineers I know used to be very top at mathematics and science since the very first year of primary school. They didn't receive any superior education, but researched and learned things by themselves, very often against a lot of things that stood in their way, like no access to internet or much more obligations (like helping family on the farm) than kids in America.

Nowadays, when it is getting much easier to learn anything being anywhere in the world, just being born or educated in the USA loses it's value.

Remember, that USA is just about 5% of world population.

fyi802• 13 years ago

And everyone who could be a good software engineer is succeeding? None of that talent is wasted on excessive obligations, or crime, or malnourishment?

potatolicious2• 13 years ago

It's not a zero-sum game. Even if the American school system miraculously stopped failing overnight, and we solve the trifecta that is American poverty-race-criminality instantaneously, it will be decades before the labor force sees the full benefit.

We can, and should, be improving the domestic situation - but even going full-bore on that front there is still a gap in labor supply that won't solve itself for decades to come.

There is also a national competitive angle here, which is that every talented, highly-paid individual not working in the US is working somewhere else, enriching another economy, paying (copious) taxes to someone else, and nudging the American trade deficit just a bit in the wrong direction. Worst case scenario they're working on things that directly threaten the US (see: space programs, military tech, economically disruptive tech, etc) when they instead could be working for you threatening some other poor country.

The most prime example of this at work is the entire history of the US space program.

crag• 13 years ago

"The economy of the last century was primarily based on natural resources, industrial machines and manual labor. It was an economy where many of these resources were zero sum and controlled by companies. If someone else had an oil field, then you did not. There are only so many oil fields, and there is only so much wealth that can be created from them for society. Today’s economy is very different. It is primarily based on knowledge and ideas — resources that are renewable and available to everyone."

Ok that's absurd. The economy today (and in the future) is based on resources. Period. It takes resources to produce ipads, food, sheets, clean water (even dirty water), cars, soap, condoms, films, power, etc, etc.

I mean, why do you think we maintain our huge Army? It's our abundance of resources that allow us and Zuckerberg to do what we/he does. And now out in the field gathering food.

Even when it all comes crashing down. It'll be a race for food, water, and salt. Not a race for webapps.

OGinparadise2• 13 years ago

Across America, creative, hardworking people in coffee shops, dorm rooms and garages are creating the next era of growth. Let’s embrace our future as a knowledge economy and help them — and all of us — reach our full potential.

Mark is talking his own book, he wants an unlimited number of cheap engineers from third world countries. Also a "knowledge economy" sounds great until it isn't. A lot like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banking_crises

Raise the salaries so they want to work for FB, Apple and Google instead of GS and JP Morgan and you'll get more than enough employees. Oh, but that would effect your margins. Why aren't corporations hiring more people, instead of hoarding trillions of dollars in cash (1)? Their earnings are at a record high.

(1) "But they do not have to...maximize shareholder's value...." etc. Fine, then we can keep that in mind and we do not even have to listen to them.

potatolicious2• 13 years ago

I keep hearing about the supposed cheapassery of Silicon Valley, but I simply do not see it.

Speaking for myself, I've been able to achieve ~20% raises every single year since I left college by leveraging the explosion in tech salaries. I do not believe I am grossly exceptional by any means. I am out-earning most finance-industry coders (though obviously not bankers).

I just don't see it. When it comes to writing code, the startup scene here in NYC (and in SF, and in SV) are competitive with finance. Short of being a quant your comp packages don't get better than this - at least not if your job description is software engineering.

In fact, I've witnessed the opposite of what you describe. In the engineers I've met there is no shortage of GS/JP Morgan refugees - people sick and tired of the ridiculous hours and being treated like cattle, and jumped ship into our side of tech. I've yet to meet anyone who's bailed from Google/Facebook/et al into GS, but I've met plenty going the other way.

I've met many engineers imported from outside of the US, especially by the likes of Facebook, Google, Amazon, et al. I've never met one that was cheap - every single one earned comfortably into the mid-$100Ks and were worth every penny. In fact, the majority of H-1B holders I've met don't come from third-world countries - they came from developed nations, and they didn't come cheap.

But don't let me get in the way of a convenient narrative, where the only purpose of immigration is the exploitation and oppression of hard-working Americans by evil corporations.

OGinparadise2• 13 years ago

But don't let me get in the way of a convenient narrative, where the only purpose of immigration is the exploitation and oppression of hard-working Americans by evil corporations.

Of course not, they really care about the 18 year old Mexican or Guatemalan busboy that came across the border at 12.

I've never met one that was cheap - every single one earned comfortably into the mid-$100Ks and were worth every penny. That's irrelevant, no where is it written that mid $100K is "not cheap," supply and demand. Google, I read, nets around $1 million from an employee.

My point is that companies usually want students from top schools, pay them as little as they can, hire them young and kinda drop them into their late thirties and then complain that we have no workers. It's a nation of 300 million people: some education reform, pre-work training maybe, giving others a chance etc can go a long way.

flyinRyan2• 13 years ago

Care to provide some numbers? mid-$100Ks is the only thing you showed and that's a pretty low salary to me unless you're fresh out of college (or in a fly-over state, by why would you be :)

rdouble• 13 years ago

That is not really how it works.

prayag• 13 years ago

Om misses the biggest problem with the way immigration reform is seen in the Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley talks about start-up visa and visa for American college graduates but doesn't touch on the lives of the immigrant kids who came here illegally when they were really young.

These kids have the first right to immigration reforms before us entrepreneur engineers who went to school here in the US. I tried to make this point in an interview I gave to a San Jose newspaper but the journalist conveniently forgot to mention it since it didn't fit well with the story.

I know that Mark, Ron, Merissa or Drew are not responsible for these kids and it doesn't affect their business while a start-up visa definitely does but I think the immigration reforms needs to be looked from both the perspectives.

Of course, as an immigrant, start-up founder who went to Berkeley I am all for making it easier for me to stay in this country. But I am ok with playing second fiddle to kids who are as American as anyone but don't have an American passport just because they spent the first few years of their life in a foreign country.

One thing is clear though. The immigration reform is an absolute need of the hour for America.

bradleyjg• 13 years ago

The DREAM Act has been introduced in every Congress for over a decade. It has gotten close a few times, but is stuck in the politics of 'amnesty'. Executive branch defered action has been in place for almost a year now, and while it's strictly inferior to a legislative solution it's far better than nothing.

All of which is to say that there is a well developed political lobby on both sides of that issue. While I'm sure the DREAM Act supporters wouldn't mind getting big checks from SV millionaires and billionaires thier voices would add little to the debate. Similarly, the major private sector unions and national buisness association, after much back and forth forged a compromise on blue collar temporary work visas sensitive to the needs of both.

It makes sense for the tech industry -- both the owners and workers -- to speak out on topics that are salient to them. That's where they are most knowledgable and where thier opinions will be most respected. There is no need to feel guilty or try and shame anyone for concentrating on the those issues.

cmccabe• 13 years ago

tl;dr: he has issues with FWD.us because he believes that letting in more skilled immigrants is unfair to people who are unskilled. He also has some vague concept that skilled immigrants take jobs away from uneducated Americans. Because, you know, hiring 10 high school drop outs can totally replace one foreign PhD whom you can't hire because of immigration bullshit.

kalms• 13 years ago

I believe he is trying to say: What is one million, in the face of the starvation of 40 mio?

I think he is wrong about this premise, since this 1 million people could help create jobs, and feed even more people (service industry, etc). Like others said: It's important for these people to focus on the game they know, and that's mostly information and technology.

midwest• 13 years ago

MarK Z is and his Friends are for low wages paid to out of country workers, look up some headlines in the past few months about microsoft, They only want out of country workers for low wages, what makes me sick is these companies are prospering bookoo bucks and they are not concerned about the thousands of unemployed american workers who have earned twice, maybe three times as much wages in the past before the pink slip and economy slip in tech, look at all the cool miners, auto workers etc also that could use some training to help these tech co. out. Mark Z and his friends just want to pay low wages to immigrants and forget about hiring or training americans- This Fwd.us is sooo antiamerican it sucks, American Businesses and Proprieters-Do Not advertise on their sites and do not utilize their services-They are not For Immigration and they are not For Americans, They are for their selfish selves. For those that won't help the economy or the unemployed, there will be those that pop of like bad weeds that do, there will be a shift change no doubt!

Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

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