Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

https://twitter.com/JohannKurtz/status/2079218735915860441

by bilsbie • 2 days ago

17 22 2 days ago

alephnerd4• 2 days ago

Or because having kids is much more limiting for women than it is for men...

It's almost like no one here has actually talked to women in their 20s and early 30s. While cost does play a role, almost every guy (and it's always guys) seems to ignore polling amongst women [0] that highlights this shift.

Women face the physical effects of childbirth and the subsequent recovery (if they recover), as well as stalled careers and the continued existence of patriarchical norms. Unsurprisingly, the younger generation of women are much less interested compared to men, because now they have a choice.

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/reasons...

throw3108225• 2 days ago

Yah, but isn't this the same that the post is saying? The younger generation of women are much less interested because now they have a choice that procures them a better status. I hope it's clear that there is no moral judgement in this- it's perfectly legitimate, actually expected behaviour.

alephnerd4• 2 days ago

It's not about status dude.

Gestating and expulsing a living human being is very difficult to physically and mentally recover from.

All we as guys need to do is put our shlong in. Women have to deal with the physical and mental externalities of that, so unsurprisingly a lot of young women are increasingly uninterested in having kids even if status played a role (which it doesn't as polling amongst women points out).

watwut4• 2 days ago

Better status is misleading label for "I will have more time for myself and things I like, for own dreams and hopes, I will be able to be more independent" and "my life wont be completely ruled by others needs with no reward" and so on.

Status is only loosely related to what those people want. It just just one of many aspects.

bad_username• 2 days ago

About four-in-ten (39%) say a major reason they didn’t have children is that it just never happened.

This sounds.... circular? The reason they didn't have children is they just didn't? This study is strange.

alephnerd4• 2 days ago

That's for women who are 50 and older. I'd recommend reading the entire survey, or you know actual women in their 20s and early 30s.

57% of all American women under 50 don't want children as the Pew Survey showed. I honestly don't understand why it's so hard for so many guys to not get that a lot of women are uninterested in having kids.

And this is a common sentiment globally as living standards rise.

b0rtb0rt• 2 days ago

most women are on medication that tricks their bodies into thinking they are already pregnant and suppresses their primary biological drive. this makes their “choice” a lot easier

bfeynman• 2 days ago

Trying to ascribe causality on macro/global level when the interesting tidbits are certainly on the regionalized scale seems mostly useless, although somewhat there is irony in again a man writing about why he thinks women having less kids than just going around and getting actual data points that aren't capture by societal level statistics. I think the undeniable trend is caused by economics especially in the western world. It's more expensive to live than ever, and kids are very expensive when you factor in cost of living and lifestyle adjustments.

This sort of essay is farcical in ascribing economic stability as "status" - which of course has a negative connotation of seeking status, but suppose thats on track for a man writing an essay about this. Women( and men) need to work now because single incomes are not enough, and women biologically have larger burden in child rearing regardless. Economic incentives for child rearing are a joke, much like most policy that ends up more as a panacea than a solution - because none of it targets the other huge correlation we see, the growing level of inequality of wealth where the top n% is accumulating more and more. One need not look at number of lawsuits regarding women getting fired or laid off from work for needing/taking maternal leave. In the US you often need to be tenured for a year to qualify for it. These are all economic issues at it's core, and the tautology to it being status seeking is an damaging one in and of itsef.

g8oz• 2 days ago

The author's proscriptions for the fertility crisis include

- permitting child labor (as long as it's in a local business)

- ending sex education

- denying student loans to women

- permitting hiring discrimination

Not sure how well such measures would fly with the general public.

throw3108225• 2 days ago

Yeah, good lord, I've read it now and it looks like a recipe to go back to the good old times of.. what, some batshit pre-modern religious society. Curious, because from the premise it sounds almost reasonable: if motherhood has become unsexy, make it cool again! Instead this goes the opposite way- let's make a society in which motherhood still sucks, but hey, you know no better.

On one hand, I think that "making motherhood sexy" could be a very reasonable path to pursue: by at the same time providing a framework of support for mothers to increase their quality of life, and deploying some long-term marketing/ educational/ cultural campaign to frame motherhood (and parenthood) as an experience that is enriching and fulfilling, a fundamental step in the development of a person.

But on the other hand, I frankly don't think we need that many human beings in the future. The fact that our fertility rate is below replacement is not going to be a problem for long.

jfengel• 2 hours ago

I believe your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. The author has the solutions they want (restricting women's rights). The "fertility crisis" is their justification for it.

If overpopulation had been the problem instead, he would almost certainly have the same prescription.

snthpy• 2 days ago

If you have kids for the status then you're going to have a bad time.

notrustincloud• 2 days ago

Also, if you have kids for status, they are going to have a bad time.

tsoukase• 1 day ago

The author names the status, the subjective good-feeling, as the common cause and I agree. In layman terms, having kids is not trendy anymore.

As parenthood lies in deeper instincts, the underlining cause is their suppression.

Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

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