American Higher Education: Not what it used to be

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

by kartman • 14 years ago

54 28 14 years ago

economist.com

joe_the_user• 14 years ago

A college education is only four years. A good portion of the value of those four years is the contact with other intelligent young people. So quality of the graduates coming out is likely proportional to the quality of the students admitted.

That is to say, aside from the important other factors mentioned in the article, the decline of American secondary education clearly is a factor in the decline of American college education.

ikono2• 14 years ago

I'd extend that thought and say the problem with American secondary education is American primary education; and the problem with American primary education is American pre-school education or lack there of; and the problem with American pre-school education or the lack there of is that investing in 3 year olds requires a long term outlook and patience; two things politicians and decision makers are incentivized to be deficient in.

rubidium• 14 years ago

Um, investing in 3 year olds is done (assuming raising children is not the states responsibility) by parents, not politicians... not sure what your point is here.

redwood• 14 years ago

Isn't the next step to say the problem with American 3 year olds, is their parents?

flexie• 14 years ago

- Only 25 percent of college graduates are deemed proficiently literate. How did the 75 percent complete college (and how did they get in to college in the first place) if they can't read and write at a proficient level?

- 43 percent of all grades are As. Isn't an A supposed to be the best grade? I was always very impressed when someone was mentioned as "a straight A student" but I guess it just means she got average or slightly better than average grades :-)

Kaivo• 14 years ago

I'm currently in a Computer Science University program that I'm doing Online and it pains me to see so many high grades.

For instance, on one of the C++ homework we had, the median was 100%. It's fun to have good grades when deserved, but sometimes they feel thrown away and the only to not get good grades is to willingly not do as asked. (Oh and by the way, in this class, A+ is given for the 90-100% bracket.)

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

I was reading an article in an OLD print magazine published in the year 1900 (probably around when that picture was taken). It spoke of the increase of college students in the U.S. and made some comments on how past countries had suffered because of too many college graduates:

"There can hardly be too large an attendance at our colleges so long as the sturdy common sense of American life keeps its balance — the common sense that forbids even an effort to make a distinct "educated " class which when "educated" is unwilling to do the common tasks at which young men must first try their mettle. In Germany there is a surplus of scholars who are worth nothing to the community. They might have been good craftsmen, but university training has left them unwilling to do the common work of the world."

Has the U.S. lost that "sturdy common sense" recently? Too many degrees are handed out (a large part thanks to for-profits) to those who probably shouldn't have a degree. If they were to attend a vocational school or become an apprentice instead of college, college degrees wouldn't be watered down by those who don't even need them, meanwhile colleges would have a student body of only those fit to be there.

rbn• 14 years ago

Degrees are useless. It's turned into a piece of paper that everybody has to have.

These days having a degree doesn't mean you actually know anything about the field that you have studied in. It just means that you have a degree thus you are allowed to get a job that doesn't require manual labor. This isn't just America, it's everywhere.

tsotha2• 14 years ago

What it means is you were smart enough to get into college and you persevered enough to finish your degree. The first part is critical, and why degrees from academically exclusive colleges are worth more than others.

woofnbark• 14 years ago

Hasn't it always been that way? Human primates want to impress other human primates, so they get themselves titles. Doctor beats Master, Master beats Bachelor, Bachelor beats Drop-Out, Drop-Out beats Secondary School Graduate. Higher Education is part of a schooling system designed to perpetuate a stratified society. Graduating demonstrates agreement.

ph0rcyas• 14 years ago

There'll always be someone to point out that such degrees are necessary for higher(!) degrees which are necessary for academia. While the myth that we have a shortage of PhDs and scientists - combined with a huge portion of academics retiring - continues, it is a very profitable excuse to get more public funding.

But that's okay, we have plenty of money to spend on all kinds of research - we're aiming at a lofty goal! But the discomforting bit is when the majority of the graduates regard everyday-life mundane stuffs are below them, that all high is in the textbooks, and simultaneously have no urge to do something (themselves or earthly people value) instead of just "learning".

impendia• 14 years ago

What exactly is this "sturdy common sense"?

I am a mathematics professor, and I have the opportunity to work at what I love. Why should I forego this to instead do "the common work of the world"?

If the only paying job available to me were digging ditches, then I would do it happily and well. Presumably the same for most people. But this comment doesn't seem to describe a choice that anyone actually faces.

Retric• 14 years ago

Recently, a fairly large number of people where unemployed for 6 months to 2 years which where receiving unemployment checks significantly above minimum wage. There was no point in them being ditch diggers as they would have earned a negative wage by doing so. Arguably, if most of these people had spent 20 hours a week doing manual labor they would have been far heather and even more motivated.

Now, there where plenty of reasons to set things up like this, but it also distorts what people thought was reasonable 100 years ago.

enjalot• 14 years ago

If you are a mathematics professor than your education got you a job worthwhile to the community. Many people get degrees which have not prepared them to contribute because they can't find a job that matches their qualifications.

I went to school with plenty of people who were there because thats just what you do. They partied too much and studied too little and now they are overqualified and underemployed. The fact that you can be overqualified to me is the loss of "sturdy common sense", not everyone is as centered as you appear to be and I think you overestimate more than a few people.

mbesto• 14 years ago

Obama made the following statement in 2009:[1]

“I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training,” Mr. Obama said in February 2009. “This can be community college or a four-year school, vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma.”

The problem is I haven't seen any concrete initiative to do such a thing. That being said, the system is ripe for it's inevitable crash. Which in my opinion is a good thing. What the US needs is to crash and hurt. That will ultimately force change.

[1] http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/obama-defends-...

antidoh• 14 years ago

My impression of my country, the US, is that we don't change with pain, we double down, so we can convince ourselves that we aren't wrong. Education methods ineffective? Assign more class hours and homework. War not going well? Pour more money and blood into it.

We don't have an education crisis and improvement cycle coming, we have a crisis and "surge" coming.

pdog• 14 years ago

Why don't we just make high schools better?

NIL82• 14 years ago

I would love to know the source of this quote. Any chance you have it available?

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

Sure, it's titled "The World's Work" and I guess it's sort of "The Economist" of its day. Here's a Google Books link (the article on education is on page 21) http://books.google.com/books/about/The_World_s_work.html?id...

steve-howard• 14 years ago

> [...] students share online tips about “blow off” classes (those which can be avoided with no damage to grades) and which teachers are the easiest-going.

Do they really think this is a new phenomenon? I can't imagine nobody spread the word about what classes were easy before the Internet.

cafard• 14 years ago

It has always been known what classes were good for little work and easy grades. On-line information must have made this more accessible in the largest schools, but has it really made a difference in those with fewer than 10 thousand undergraduates?

valuegram• 14 years ago

"But rising fees and increasing student debt, combined with shrinking financial and educational returns, are undermining at least the perception that university is a good investment."

Of course it's not ALWAYS a good investment. It depends on what you're investing in. That's like saying investing in equities is a bad idea, because poor choices lead to poor returns.

Why do all of the ballooning student loan conversations lump "college degrees" together? Area of study has a significant impact. I know of very few engineers who are being crushed by student debt. Of course if someone chooses to spend over $100k obtaining a bachelors degree in art, and has problems getting a job out of school, this has somehow become the fault of the university, or the United States, or society in general.

American Higher Education: Not what it used to be

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