Eric Lippert is leaving Microsoft

by amazedsaint • 14 years ago

123 65 14 years ago

This is quite a shock. I worked at Coverity about 7 years ago, but I didn't have much faith in static analysis (now I'm at Microsoft, ironic).

PedroBatista• 14 years ago

Looks like your career is a string of bad bets..

(joking)

seanmcdirmid7• 14 years ago

Quite true. I'm sure it would have worked out well financially if I hanged around in San Francisco (probably working for Coverity) rather than go to Lausanne to do a postdoc.

wsc981• 14 years ago

I wonder why you lost or never had any faith in static analysis. On Apple's platforms it's becoming a really big "thing". Also John Carmack talked about the benefits of static code analysis at QuakeCon 2012.

Also a good read: http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysi...

tptacek• 14 years ago

It's a huge big deal in enterprise software security; lots of Fortune 500 firms deploy it (most of them use Fortify, not Coverity).

I'm not a fan either.

MattRogish• 14 years ago

I'm a big +1 for static code analysis as a "silent observer" of code practices. We have various static checks run on each build and if a certain threshold is crossed, the build will kick out an error (we've decided not to have it fail entirely, although some could argue that's a reasonable thing to do).

Although we're a Ruby and JS shop, we take advantage of different services and libraries that perform different checks. In dynamic-language land it's a lot harder to do some of the things that static complication provides, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing!

loumf• 14 years ago

I hated every attempt at static analysis until I started programming with Xcode. In my usage, Build and Analyze is always right -- that's the difference. Other tools (lint, FXCop) are too noisy. Even warnings in some compilers are an annoyance that you have to code around to eliminate.

jacquesm2• 14 years ago

Why would you not have much faith in static analysis? Have you changed your mind on this?

seanmcdirmid7• 14 years ago

I am a firm believer that the best way to fix programming is through better programming languages, which I learned about myself while working at Coverity. Otherwise I think it was a great place to work: lots of very smart people, a very good business plan, great startup stock (back then), but I'm too idealistic!

Static analysis tools are very pragmatic in a world where better languages aren't adopted very often.

wololo2• 14 years ago

static analysis is always going to result in a deluge of false positives

i think the future is symbolic execution, which due to a lot of factors is becoming practical

jbevain3• 14 years ago

One has to wonder if that's not related to how C# and .net are being treated as second class citizens nowadays at Microsoft.

As we saw recently:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4842024

they're looking for someone to work on a C# to native code compiler. Even if .net as a VM and the C# to IL compiler are far from gone (and probably never will be), it doesn't look like C# and .net are in favor at Microsoft nowadays.

Oh well, as long as Eric keeps on blogging...

Locke16893• 14 years ago

Don't get all conspiracy theory on us.

Sad to see Eric go (just started working with him!) but glad that he's moving on to other great things.

jbevain3• 14 years ago

Huh, I'm definitely not going “all conspiracy theory” on you. And by you I guess I mean Microsoft?

The perception from the outside, or let say, my perception, is that both .net and C# along (C# being the flagship language for the platform) don't have the same place in Microsoft's strategy than they had say 4 years ago.

Eric being one more visible .net profile leaving Microsoft, I'm just saying it's interesting to wonder if that's related.

mythz4• 14 years ago

Doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out C#/.NET is no longer Microsoft's sole flagship strategy for developers...

Microsoft have recently discontinued their only managed .NET cross-platform managed UI effort in Silverlight in favor of the multi-language Win 8 SDK with JavaScript, C# and C++ bindings. Most Windows applications are still being written in C++ where you would barely notice the difference if Windows didn't have .NET installed, this is in stark contrast for instance with Apple's positioning of their own XCode/Obj-C development platform they've used to build OSX, which essentially would be a glorified terminal if you took away all Obj-C libraries and applications.

Microsoft have also made significant investments in JavaScript and node.js, with even Anders moving off C# to work on TypeScript for a bit.

Basically they're business models have changed where they're now positioning Azure (their new server strategy) as a multi-platform cloud strategy with support parity for .NET, node.js, Java, PHP and Python: https://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/develop/overview/

So I don't think it's a stretch to observe there has been in-fact a "Difference in strategic position" with Microsoft's attitude towards C#/.NET.

joe_the_user2• 14 years ago

I know nothing about this particular situation but it pretty well known that power-struggles are the default mode of operation in many large corporations (and Microsoft in particular) and that further almost any manager who leaves a company without being escorted out in handcuffs is going to be "leaving for great things" according to all concerned. Thus speculation about power struggles and corporate emphases is natural unless the company is unusually transparent and/or all of the managers' product are doing well.

Not that managers don't leave for better things on a regular basis but making that the leaving-mantra sadly has reduced its credibility.

Edit: It would be "conspiracy theory" to light on one explanation and push it blindly without overwhelming evidence. But speculation in the dark is fine if it is labeled as such. Real, concrete information is better than speculation the dark. If one could count on such concrete information from Microsoft and others, one would want avoid.

tonyedgecombe• 14 years ago

"they're looking for someone to work on a C# to native code compiler"

I wouldn't read too much into that. My guess is they are looking for something easier to work with for device driver developers.

tkellogg• 14 years ago

I'm not even sure why that's necessary. If you need a block of performant code, use unsafe C# (no array bounds checking, unmanaged pointers, etc). Otherwise, C# runs pretty fast the way it is.

ericlippert2• 14 years ago

There were many factors that led to this decision. I described the primary factor in my posting: I've been at this job for sixteen years at the same company, I am turning 40, and it is very common for people at that age to want to make a change.

I assure you that "how C# is treated" was in no way a factor; C# is treated extremely well at Microsoft. Moreover, think it through: I would not have taken a job that continues to improve the broader C# ecosystem if I thought that the .NET platform was some kind of dead end. It is vital.

redthrowaway• 14 years ago

I was going to say something similar. It's odd how, in a community that exhorts its members to constantly be seeking the best opportunities, someone leaving a company after over a decade is considered a sign of some deeper problem.

jbevain3• 14 years ago

Thanks for the feedback Eric.

As a long time fan of C# and how it evolved (started with .net beta 1), and even more so of Roslyn, I for one would be very disappointed to see C# not being considered from Microsoft as I consider it.

Good luck in your next position, I heard that Coverity for .net is using Cecil :)

andband• 14 years ago

I think .NET will always be there, I think C# will continue to grow and evolve as a language (with the help of its big brother F#).

meaty• 14 years ago

I'm inclined to agree.

Getting support issues nailed with the .Net framework has started to become a PITA in the last year or so. It does feel like they are winding it all down.

nathanwdavis• 14 years ago

If you've never read Eric's blog, I highly recommend it for anyone into language design and implementation (C# or not).

dkhenry• 14 years ago

Nice to see a move to Coverity. I use their product and it is one of the best static analysis tools I have used. Maybe we will see support for more languages rolled into the tool.

Hey Eric while your there how about you make the CLI tool suck less. I want a simple invocation to test for the presence of failures.

zwieback• 14 years ago

Me too, love Coverity although I'm only using it for C right now.

sergiotapia• 14 years ago

C# was my first programming language and no doubt what caused me to love my trade. I wish Mr. Lippert the best of luck and I hope he finds happiness and new found direction in this new transition.

dklounge• 14 years ago

Enjoy the time off & Merry Christmas! Good luck at Coverity.

Eric Lippert is leaving Microsoft

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