Scouting's Real Crisis Is Not Marketing. It Is Decades of Neglect.

https://www.untendedfire.org/2026/05/09/scoutings-real-crisis-is-not-marketing-it-is-decades-of-neglect/

by AuthorizedCust • 2 months ago

28 64 2 months ago

The article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which also explains the precipitous 2020 collapse in membership in the chart that is prominently shown up top. Turns out parents aren't too keen on sending their kids into camps that have reported 92,000 cases of sexual abuse (and how many cases were not?).

duskwuff• 2 months ago

Are you sure that's the only cause? I can think of some other events in 2020 that might have led to a lot of youth dropping out of in-person programs.

6stringmerc• 2 months ago

Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).

vintermann3• 2 months ago

I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?

nephihaha4• 2 months ago

That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.)

There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

The 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic.

The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent.

Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic.

Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).

naijaboiler• 2 months ago

i disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.

intrasight• 2 months ago

Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects.

I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me.

I was sad because the product is truly awesome.

moribvndvs• 2 months ago

I was in the Boy Scouts and a lot of it was appealing at first, but it eventually became ugly to me. I loved the aspects that focused on nature, exploration, self-reliance, and to a degree the quasi-military sense of duty, brotherhood, structure, and (at least the illusion) of support which I craved. As I got older though, I became impatient if not infuriated with the organization’s preoccupation with dogma, ideological loyalty, and increasing focus on establishing in and out groups. The leaders and scouts that flourished where rigid top down authoritarian types that epitomized what I grew to strongly dislike about the rest of American patriarchal society that I was increasingly struggling with in day to day life: bullying, hypocrisy, cruelty, and fearful of anything that doesn’t conform to an embarrassingly narrow and ignorant standard. Of course, I understood that it perhaps said more about the fact a lot of dads in my community were assholes, but organizationally it seemed to reward those sorts of people and shit all over everyone else. I just wanted to camp and respect nature, not join the Hitler Youth and get bullied more. I was/am annoyed by people being surprised by the BSA’s problems with abuse, as logically and historically these sorts of institutions are fertile ground for abuse.

KnuthIsGod• 2 months ago

The elephant in the room is

the pedophile in the Scoutmaster.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-america-have...

Why would any responsible parent put their child in such danger.

nephihaha4• 2 months ago

Yes, it is unfortunately. It is a great shame, because I believe scouting can be a positive experience when there are proper safeguards. They have paid out a lot of compensation recently.

In the USA, the Mormon church disaffiliated their programme from them a few years ago and that was a big blow to them too since a lot of LDS kids were members.

bluGill5• 2 months ago

The danger is the same as anywhere. It just got in the news and now you think it is worse.

slumberlust• 2 months ago

Do you feel that it's also irresponsible for parents to take their kids to a Catholic church?

nephihaha4• 2 months ago

The highest rates of abuse are in government run institutions worldwide, but I rarely hear that mentioned.

bawolff• 2 months ago

The cost falls on both ends of Scouts BSA. That program is optimal for middle schoolers, but middle schoolers are not trusted to own it. They are managed by older youth instead. High schoolers fare no better. Instead of receiving programming built around autonomy, peer challenge, advanced outdoor adventure, and responsibility suited to their age, the vast majority are trapped in a middle-school program where their main role is supervising the younger Scouts. BSA romanticizes this as mentoring. Teenagers see it as babysitting. They know the difference, and they leave.

A kind of interesting statement. I dont know if i agree. I think it is a positive thing to have children from different age groups learn from each other. Obviously it shouldn't devolve into just babysitting, but the idea of mixed ages learning together doesn't seem inherently bad.

meetingthrower2• 2 months ago

Former Eagle Scout here -- I agree a bit with this analysis. The absolute best parts of it for me were the high adventure camps, backpacking, etc. The absolute worst where the Monday meetings. Depending on the vibe of the troop your activities bias one way or the other.

valleyjo• 2 months ago

Once you earn it you are an Eagle Scout for life. So you are an Eagle Scout not a “former” Eagle Scout. At least that’s what I was thought!

bluGill5• 2 months ago

I'm currently scoutmaster and that is my thought. Camping is fun, but we do that once a month - what should we do the other times that is fun

em-bee4• 2 months ago

the idea of mixed ages learning together doesn't seem inherently bad

it's not. the problem is that the teenagers are not given any real authority that would be appropriate for their age. but then on their 18th birthday they suddenly become assistant scoutmasters with the expectation of real authority that comes with that title. so they become leaders simply because of their age, and not by merit or experience. in germany a patrol is a self functioning unit with their own meeting times or spaces. a patrol leader is someone who has been shown to be mature and patrols are able to plan and execute their own events and trips without an adult needing to be present. in the US that rarely happens. that's not just a BSA problem though, it is a problem of american culture in general. anyone under the age of 18 is treated like a child.

Henchman213• 2 months ago

Seems like the problem is actually that we have decided children have and deserve no agency.

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

All age bands deserve age-level programming.

Today's reality is that 90% of BSA's high schoolers are stuck in its middle-school program. They aren't getting age-level programming.

BSA has never strongly denied this. Instead, it acts as if handing the reins of its middle-school program to high schoolers constitutes age-level programming for high schoolers. It does not.

It even further muddies the water, recommending mixed-age patrols. Yes, for real, your freshly crossed-over 10 year old is supposed to be in the same patrol as a 17 yo high-school senior. That is weird. But BSA thinks it's appropriate.

To be clear, I think cross-age-band interactions can have value, but they must be optional, and they must never displace age-level programming. I have separately proposed a new position called Guide. It is a position of responsibility where any youth may elect to help with any younger program. This is a service role, not supervision, not displacing younger youth from owning their program. This replaces Den Chief, Instructor, Junior Asst. Scoutmaster, and Troop Guide.

But importantly, and to reemphasize, Guide must be OPTIONAL. Scouting in no way depends on cross-age-band interactions. They are a value add when they work well. But the BSA view on these interactions resembles a fetish and lacks a rational basis.

jaybrendansmith2• 2 months ago

I like this revamp idea, actually. In the troop I help with, we have an older 'venture patrol', and separating these two groups (10-13 vs 14-17) makes a lot of sense. And I don't particularly like the idea of any boy or girl getting Eagle before at least 16...holding leadership positions is really important. I think this structural change would help keep boys and girls interested past age 14. But mostly, I think the organization, which has done over a century of good, needs money to get a branding facelift. If any of these billionaire types want to do good, they could consider that shaping the country's youth with a solid program focused on citizenship, moral judgement, and outdoor skills might be something positive they could be remembered for.

ndr42• 2 months ago

BSA rebranded itself “Scouting America.” The new name initializes to “SA,” common shorthand for sexual assault.

Well, as a german and history conscious person I think the acronym could also be taken in a completely different way.

RobotToaster2• 2 months ago

Obviously they should have called it Scouting States.

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

More important context are current BSA youth and incoming generations of BSA Scout parents.

To them, SA = sexual assault.

cbdevidal2• 2 months ago

Looks like membership peaked in 1971. Add that chart to the list:

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

bsenftner• 2 months ago

I remember, my older brother wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and I was of the age to initially join. Some respected counter culture person, I don't think I was him, but someone like George Carlin, started talking about the boy scouts being where men scouted boys. That was it, the boy scouts were instantly "uncool".

RobotToaster2• 2 months ago

I assume that site is implying it's Nixon's fault? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock

cbdevidal2• 2 months ago

He certainly contributed, but I personally would not agree that it was all his fault.

bluGill5• 2 months ago

As scoutmaster the article feels wrong. There are things that I'm sure are wrong but I don't know what they are. the article doesn't seem right either though.

slv772• 2 months ago

As a scoutmaster you have probably noticed the problems go much deeper:

1) The BSA national organization sized itself in the 1970s based on the idea that membership would continue to increase forever. The national organization is grossly oversized relative to the needs of the troops. The result is that the national organizations needs are at odds with the troops needs. The national organization is primarily focused on funding itself, including its debt, which creates a net burden for troops. 2) This net burden manifests itself in multiple ways at the troop level including using troops for fund raising efforts for the national organization where little if any of the funds make it back to the troop, increasingly irrelevant mandatory merit badge requirements to appease national donors who want to make their mark (reducing scout choices) and increasingly expensive costs for camps and equipment. 3) Lack of a solid development program for Scoutmasters. Few men in corporate America truly know how to manage or lead anymore. This rot started in the 1970s when computer programs replaced middle management and operations was largely outsourced. Outdoor skills have eroded as the population became more urbanized. Scoutmasters can’t teach what they don’t know and the national organization hasn’t filled that gap. For example compare BSA with NOLS for quality of their skills training. 4) Without a strong selection and development program for scoutmasters there is no prestige. Corporate America’s doesn’t see it as a place to develop leadership from but a distraction. That means that the people the scouting organization can draw from are the very, very good and the very, very bad. 5) Sexual abuse is a significant problem for any youth development organization and that fact was ignored by the BSA for way too long. The majority of perpetrators are men. As an organization with a declining pool of volunteers to draw adult leadership from the ratio of abusers who volunteer is going to be uncomfortably high. Courts and the court of public opinion have shown that there is no limit to the liability for this type of behavior. This is a strong signal that American’s simply do not want youth programs where this kind of thing can happen. 6) Being an adult leader of a youth organization comes with breathtakingly high amount of personal liability. Simply moving a car full of youth from one place to another risks financial devastation. The BSA does little to nothing to mitigate that risk and the only other way to mitigate that is through 1:1 youth to parent involvement where children are under direct, parental supervision at all times. This is antithetical to a youth lead program like the BSA.

bluGill5• 2 months ago

And I really get the impression that you're very out of touch with what's scouts is like today when you make comments like that. I mean, yes, there are problems, but they are not what you say. There are plenty of great leaders, at least from what I can see. There's lots of parents that are very good at this.

As for sexual abuse, the scouts have very good programs to stop it. The past is not the reality today. Comments like yours probably are the reality of public opinion. However, they are not the reality of scouting today.

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

I am confident you invested greatly in the program in good faith.

It's hard to learn of problems with something we deeply invested in. I've been there. It took me years to work through this struggle and come to these positions.

But I find there's an excellent case that BSA can do much better. And it must, or it's going to collapse within 10 years.

The good thing is "do better" is right in front of us. It means catching up with international peers, adopting lessons learned from and norms in our own society, and eliminating irrational deviations from longstanding notions of what Scouting is.

bluGill5• 2 months ago

On the one hand you're right, on the other hand all these complaints people are talking about really do feel like from the 1970s and that's not the reality of today

bshepard• 2 months ago

The AI writing patterns here are obnoxious on both a sentence by sentence level and at the level of overall meaning and content. Because a machine wrote this, lacks human intelligence, so is not worth reading.

kappuchino2• 2 months ago

I read the text myself and checked it with pangram, it's 95% plus human written (people hate hundred percent so the discount). So I'm asking myself if it is ragebait or Idiocracy. I know that's harsh to say, but throwing in written by AI is harsh as well. (Analysis: Pangram believes that this document is fully human-written https://www.pangram.com/history/c59610e0-aba7-469c-b762-21f7...)

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

I wrote that piece, and I am human. BTW, AI checkers are garbage. Even though your stat is heavily in my favor, I urge you not to use that stuff.

It is not rage bait. It's good-faith commentary on how a movement has become lost.

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

I wrote this. I am a human.

adamtaylor_13• 2 months ago

The point about leadership stands. One thing about leadership that, you must be someone worth following.

I went to a scouting event about a year ago and honestly none of the leadership was inspiring in any way. Timid communication, lack of eye contact, pudgy physique, unkempt appearance.

Look I'm not trying to bash anyone, but am I supposed to tell my kid to look up to these folks? There's no way.

plasticeagle• 2 months ago

AI;DR

AuthorizedCust9• 2 months ago

I am a human, and I wrote that.

Scouting's Real Crisis Is Not Marketing. It Is Decades of Neglect.

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