For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/11/i-am-no-man-for-zelda-playing-daughter-dad-gives-link-a-sex-change/

by jojomnky • 14 years ago

145 119 14 years ago

eli_awry• 14 years ago

This is great, and adorable. When I was a kid, I hated that I was a girl because boys had all the adventures in books. Fiction by authors that featured tough girls - Tamora Pierce being a notable example - helped turn that around. Girls want to go on wild chases in strange lands too!

Tipzntrix4• 14 years ago

I enjoyed the Circle of Magic series too.

ktrgardiner• 14 years ago

Probably my absolute favorite book series are The Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede. The protagonist is a princess who grows up hating all the typical princess things she's being taught so she convinces people to teach her swordfighting, magic, Latin, and other things princes are taught. When she gets fed up she runs away to be a dragon's princess and has all sorts of great adventures.

Those books are so refreshing and brilliant that I still reread them to this day.

tptacek4• 14 years ago

I don't understand why parents feel the need to be so politically correct. As 'yummyfajitas is sure to point out shortly, every empirical study ever conducted has shown that males have a statistically significant advantage in slaying Octoroks and Peahats.

Permit• 14 years ago

I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them. If a young child plays video games and consistently sees that boys are always the hero, they might extrapolate that to simply: "Boys and always the hero".

I don't have a strong opinion on the subject, I just thought I'd try and explain the position as I understand it.

1qaz2wsx3edc• 14 years ago

Then again, having the kid realize their parents have been subverting reality could lead to trust and control issues between them.

I'll admit it's nice, but at the same time it's delusionment.

Nathandim2• 14 years ago

I'm sorry but I'm firm to believe that the problem lies to the mind that makes the distinction first. If someone sees Link and the first thing that pops in his head is "what a shame he's not a girl" and retcon the intended storytelling to keep the content on par with their expectations then I certainly can't blame the game's creator. Not to mention that the boy isn't always the hero. I'll just bring another Nintendo saga as an example, Metroid which the main character is Samus Aran.

I know that the problem is that there aren't enough games that a young girl can play who offer character customization and that's not just alarming but also shows that there's potentially a market for that kind of games. What bothers me is that parents do not understand that they can't keep their children grow up in a bubble. This is clearly over-protectiveness over something that might or might not be interpreted erroneously over time by his daughter.

What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years?

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

> I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them.

Let me say that, in my experience, this is absolutely true. I grew up in Western PA, in a place where we had to drive 50 miles to visit other asians, who weren't even also Korean. I certainly made subconscious connections and observations about the world, many of which were hugely skewed by my environment. For example, it took me until I was in my 20's to figure out that my parents were as sarcastic as any other people. Absent any Korean community in which to observe interactions in that cultural context, I absorbed this notion that Koreans just didn't do sarcasm, which is absolutely incorrect.

tedunangst4• 14 years ago

Obvious solution is obvious. Children need to be forced to play more Metroid.

beering• 14 years ago

This isn't about political correctness, and kneejerk dismissals like this aren't constructive.

dllthomas2• 14 years ago

Did... you stop reading the comment before the joke became apparent, to complain about the kneejerk nature of the comment?

bryanlarsen• 14 years ago

As usual, a negative post has floated to the top. This time from one of Hacker News' most prolific and highly rated posters.

It's not about being PC, it's about a cool hack and supporting one's daughters.

aidenn0• 14 years ago

Did you actually read the entirety of tptacek's comment?

sophacles• 14 years ago

It was actually a sarcastic, intentional point missing. Humorous too. I thought I was well executed.

I will admit, the possibility of you out-Poe-ing tptacek is possible here tho....

tptacek4• 14 years ago

Ahhh, nerddom.

zipdog• 14 years ago

I find this an appropriate comment by Hofstadter, in the Intro to 'Godel Escher Bach', on the gender of the Tortoise:

The Tortoise turns out never to have been attributed either gender. But when I first read it, the question never entered my mind. This was clearly a he-tortoise. After all, an author only introduces a female character for some special reason, right? Whereas a male character in a neutral context needs no raison d'etre, a female does. And so, given no clue as to the Tortoise's sex, I unthinkingly and uncritically envisaged it as a male. Thus does sexism silently pervade well-meaning but susceptible brains.

trhtrsh2• 14 years ago

This is called "normativity" in pyschology/philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative

Tipzntrix4• 14 years ago

If you are talking about the Tortoise and the Hare, I personally also identified the tortoise as a male, but the hare as a female. It's just how the words sounded in my head.

I have not read GEB; perhaps it's a different tortoise you are talking about.

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

This was clearly a he-tortoise. After all, an author only introduces a female character for some special reason, right?

This kind of thing certainly applies to me and music. For some reason, it's hardly noticed when a North American of Hungarian, Polish, or French descent decides to play Irish Traditional music, but someone with Hispanic, African, or Asian descent playing that kind of music is frequently asked questions about how she/he got into Irish Music, or if they're in conservatory or are studying ethnomusicology, as if only "white" people are the default, normal human beings. A lot of this plain ignorance. For example, there's a thriving pan-celtic music scene in South America in countries like Argentina, where many people are playing the music as part of their heritage from celtic regions in northern Spain, like Galicia and Asturias, so there's no reason why the above attitudes should necessarily apply, depending on where in S. America that person is from.

Most people have a caricatured view of the world, where the only culture that matters is the majority's, and everyone else's culture is just some kind of distracting "flavor of the month" which only survives out of some sort of jingoism and has no deep artistic value on its own. Let me tell you, this perception has nothing to do with artistic value, and is only an illusion woven by political and economic power. Often the best music is made by people who have neither.

throw_away• 14 years ago

Hofstadter also wrote this: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html regarding gendered language.

mvarner• 14 years ago

I think the point was less to be politically correct and more to personalize the game towards his daughter. He seems to really care about video games and wants to create the best possible experience for his daughter so that she can share that love. A large part of video games is basically pretending to be the character you're controlling, and a three year old girl who renamed the character after herself is generally going to pretend to be herself.

cube13• 14 years ago

I think you need to read the entirety of tptacek's post.

sltkr• 14 years ago

I love comments like these just because they reveal how many people don't actually read the comments they reply to (even if they're only two sentences long!)

Tipzntrix4• 14 years ago

Ridin on the coattail of top tier posters is a surefire way to get your comment noticed.

pygorex• 14 years ago

This isn't political correctness run amok. This is simply a father trying to provide a positive female role model for his young daughter. Y'know, so she doesn't get the impression that heroism, accomplishment, ingenuity and adventure are of solely male provenance.

I'm curious - if it was a black father modding in a dark-skinned Link what would your reaction be?

tptacek4• 14 years ago

Horrified. White people are better at killing Octoroks, and if telling black people that hurts their feelings, we should blame the Octoroks, not the white people.

ismarc• 14 years ago

It's hours later and I'm just now responding, so this will likely get lost amongst the other comments, but... I distinctly recall playing The Legend of Zelda and having Link be completely genderless. It even led to a lot of interesting conversations amongst 10 year old kids about why Link and who was Link. Unlike Super Mario Bros., there are no stereotypically male or female aspects of Link. You're not rescuing the princess, you're working for the princess. I have always found the design of the original Zelda game fascinating in that regard, it's designed so that any player can project themselves onto the protagonist without any psychological conflicts...it's as minimal as the protagonist in centipede.

YoukaiCountry• 14 years ago

I foresee some confusing conversations with her peers about the series when she is a little older.

Kaworu• 14 years ago

I think enough people confuse Zelda and Link that she'll be able to get away with it

chc• 14 years ago

You mean about how there's no character named "Maya" in the Zelda canon? I think they'll be able to work past the character customization. Somehow even Mass Effect players manage to discuss their game.

31432• 14 years ago

Mass Effect players know and expect that players will have their own version of the main character with different genders. Nobody has that expectation about the Legend of Zelda.

agentultra• 14 years ago

Great idea and cool hack.

I'm about to be the father of a baby girl soon myself and there is no end to the anxiety I hold for the struggles she's going to face simply because she's a girl.

Although if she ever wants to know programming, maths, and how to solder a PCB I intend to be there for her... and perhaps editing hex dumps of games as well. Thanks for the tip!

samspot2• 14 years ago

I don't worry about it so much because I know as a father that I can make sure she has the opportunity and encouragement to pursue traditionally male-oriented interests. I worry more about other little girls whose parents may be the biggest enforcers of these stereotypes.

rayiner2• 14 years ago

As someone who is myself about to be the father of a baby girl any day now, congratulations!

I have to admit, it is pretty shocking to realize for myself how gender-normative I am already being. Her room is Tiffany Blue and all her clothes are already pink. I hope I keep it to these superficial things...

Kroem3r• 14 years ago

It's very easy to encourage and support an outlook where the default gender is female, where heroes are female (even if they are princesses who favour pink). For us, all that was easy and natural. I'm now flummoxed by "Math is hard." And speaking of over-sexualized toys, that cultural norm is also easy to avoid.

It might be that part of our family culture includes a sense of cliquishness, so this all may circle back for ass-chewing later on; but for now it's good.

aidos• 14 years ago

Congratulations to you both! It's a wonderful journey.

As a completely unscientific experiment I just did some colour searches on Google Images. Pink and blue images make up 65% of the results for the word 'baby'. As you've probably already discovered, a trip down to your local baby shop doesn't offer a huge variation from this in terms of baby clothes.

AgathaTheWitch4• 14 years ago

This is a very cool hack, and I support the intention behind it. Still, it is something I would never do for two reasons:

For one, as an author, I disagree with altering a text for a political purpose. To be sure, this instance is fairly innocuous, and parents frequently change bedtime stories on the fly to suit their kids. Nevertheless I consider the Legend of Zelda to be a text with its own mythology and themes, and just as I wouldn't rewrite Hamlet as a girl for my daughter, I wouldn't do it to Link.

Secondly I think it is important to teach kids to have role-models of BOTH genders. Two of my brother's biggest fictional role-models growing up were Wonderwoman and Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell. In the same way, girls can learn leadership and toughness from male protagonists and heroes. I'm not accusing this father of not knowing this, but it would be my approach were I playing Zelda with my daughter.

saraid2164• 14 years ago

> just as I wouldn't rewrite Hamlet as a girl for my daughter

Actually, that's sort of an interesting thought experiment. I was going to point out "Get thee to a nunnery," but I guess "monastery" would work fine. I think the act of rewriting Hamlet with gender-flips would be a nice exploration of sexism.

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

Actually, that's sort of an interesting thought experiment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2000/aug/23/artsfeatures.e...

It's been noted that in many parts of Africa, the reaction to Hamlet's reaction to his uncle would be: A man dies, so his brother marries the widow -- that's the good and proper thing to do!

scott_s2• 14 years ago

I don't consider this a "political" purpose. It's not done for other people, it's done for his daughter.

lmm• 14 years ago

If that were the case he wouldn't be publicising it.

arrrg• 14 years ago

There is no dearth of male heroes. Your concern about her not encountering male role models is completely bonkers.

I’m also not sure what your exact reason for opposing changing a work of art is as long as the original is not destroyed. And what is this political purpose you are talking about? I don’t see any connection to politics.

AgathaTheWitch4• 14 years ago

I'm not concerned about her not encountering male role models. I wrote "girls can learn leadership and toughness from male protagonists and heroes." That's what I would try to do with Link, not make him into a female.

I'm speaking very generally when I say "political purpose". I don't mean that he is advancing an ideology, but rather he is addressing a gripe he has with society, specifically the lack of female heroes. He is addressing this issue by changing a text. I don't agree with this, though I assume the father's intent was purely to help his daughter and not to push his politics on anyone.

IvarTJ2• 14 years ago

Both Wonderwoman and Kusanagi are modeled with apparent sex appeal by male authors. Could they really still be good role models? I ask this as someone who don't know much about either comics.

pjscott• 14 years ago

Of course they can. Imagine a hypothetical comic with characters of both genders who are all sparklingly excellent role models in the way they behave. Now imagine that this comic was drawn by people who designed all those characters to be blatantly, panderingly sexy -- a fairly common situation, since sex sells, and cross-demographic appeal makes commercial sense. Does this make the characters poor role models, in spite of their good personalities and deeds? I doubt it.

shardling• 14 years ago

The creation of Wonder Woman is actually pretty interesting -- it was done in collaboration with the creators wife, and she was modeled somewhat after a woman they were in a polyamorous relationship with. She was also explicitly designed to be a good role model for girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderwoman#Creation

theevocater• 14 years ago

Both Wonderwoman and Kusanagi are women designed by men. They are literally characters designed by men that dictate their views on how women should be. Even if they are relatively positive, they are still men transmitting their thoughts on how women should be.

Tell us more about female role models please!

AgathaTheWitch4• 14 years ago

What's interesting is that both of those characters have evolved considerably beyond their beginnings. I think it is oversimplifying to say that they represent men dictating "how women should be", but both Marston's Wonderwoman and Masamune's Kusanagi have been interpreted in drastically different ways by other writers.

If you believe that a character who's gender is the opposite of its creator is somehow invalid or cannot be a role model then I don't know what to say other than I don't agree. It's a subjective point and not particularly interesting to debate in my opinion.

hythloday• 14 years ago

just as I wouldn't rewrite Hamlet as a girl for my daughter

Are you aware that Hamlet is a rewriting of an earlier play for a political purpose?

mnicole3• 14 years ago

> In the same way, girls can learn leadership and toughness from male protagonists and heroes.

As inspired as I am by men in web development, I don't get the same feeling of confidence as I do from other women in the industry. I would say that while these heroes are naturally going to have a positive effect on anyone, the females are inherently more relatable - and therefore more influential - to girls.

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

Someone should do a mod of Ico where Yorda rescues Ico.

GBond• 14 years ago

Hayao Miyazaki uses female protagonist not because it is more "PC" but for the advancement of the story.

'Miyazaki: I don't logically plan it that way. When we compare a man in action and a girl in action, I feel girls are more gallant. If a boy is walking with a long stride, I don't think anything particular, but if a girl is walking gallantly, I feel "that's cool." '

Tyrannosaurs3• 14 years ago

I accept it's not specifically because it's PC, but that's not advancement of the story, that's just him applying his own perceptions and prejudices.

A girl walking a particular way isn't more significant than a boy walking in a particular way, he just sees it as such.

Generally in these situations it's best not to worry too much about the intentions the person had and just look at the end result. After all, intentions will often be unclear, lied about, recollection of why something was may change over time and so on.

It's interesting to hear what someone says, but what they actually produce is more important.

shirro• 14 years ago

My young son loves Studio Ghibli films. Nearly all the main characters Kiki, Chihiro, Ponyo, Arrietty, Satsuke and Mei etc are girls. He is a bit young for Mononoke and hasn't seen Nausicaä. About the only one he doesn't like is Porco Rosso. Role models are important but I don't know that all our kids heroes and game characters have to be same sex.

rkwz2• 14 years ago

I thought Porco Rosso was sad compared to Totoro or Mononoke. My friends who liked other Miyazaki movies didn't like Porco Rosso.

BklynJay• 14 years ago

Dad of the Year Award: For. The. Win.

d0m• 14 years ago

Can't wait to read the article about the mom who hacked Lara Croft to have a guy rather than a girl as heroine.

rkwz2• 14 years ago

Link somewhat looks like a little girl. But Lara Croft as a guy?

masklinn2• 14 years ago

That would actually be rather interesting. A significantly more extensive hack though, and maybe not one as "necessary" as there isn't exactly a dearth of male heroes in 3D adventure games.

For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

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