Set the Line Before It's Crossed

https://nomagicpill.substack.com/p/set-the-line-before-its-crossed

by surprisetalk • 4 months ago

81 49 4 months ago

nomagicpill.substack.com

_dwt• 4 months ago

It’s ok, Harlan, you save up for that baby and don’t let the cult browbeat you over it.

(People are fuzzy and while game theory is fun and even sometimes useful, this kind of stuff skeeves me out and I think it lures “smart” people in and gets them to empower the SBFs of the world. My altruism is ineffective and I’m happy that way.)

strken3• 4 months ago

I'm not convinced setting clear lines is a net positive. A line means digging your heels in. The act of setting a line makes you resistant to change: you anchor your values as they are today, and it comes at the cost of tomorrow.

Domestic violence is an obvious line to set, but are you really going to cut a good friend off for not repaying a loan? I would argue that the former is a net good (protects people from abuse) while the latter is a net harm (causes people to abandon their friends when times are bad, without helping to get repaid). I would also argue that most lines fall into the latter category.

Setting lines to protect moral, philosophical, or political beliefs seems even worse, because it's preventing you from changing your mind about those things. Once you've set a line, you can't adapt to change as easily. Having criteria for changing your mind is a band-aid over the problem, because those criteria are set by you as you are today, and they're biased by your current beliefs.

my_throwaway23• 4 months ago

Most people don't treat their line setting as holy scripture. Besides, nobody stops you from putting your actions on a sliding scale.

Did your good friend not repay his loan? Okay, what's the size of the loan, and how did they react when you reminded them? What's the circumstances surrounding the loan itself - did they borrow for the down payment of a mansion, or did they borrow to buy cheese?

Also, if you're treating your life as a game theory set piece then perhaps that's a place where you should start making changes. Just sayin'.

knollimar• 4 months ago

Domestic violence is an obvious line to set

is it? the example given for things implied to disallow are playful pinching/punching.

Even the author's implied choice of line is suspect here.

malfist• 4 months ago

What is "playful punching"?

recursive• 4 months ago

If you think someone might be a DV risk that seems like a reasonable line as long as your expectations are clear.

watwut4• 4 months ago

Ruben, Lou’s boyfriend, playfully pinches her, then playfully punches her, then seriously pinches her, then seriously punches her, and so on. Each time she convinces herself that her domestic abuse line wasn’t crossed, ultimately leading to her getting full-on abused.

If I start by not liking playful pinches and said so, you should stop doing them. That is the initial situation. But in this (made up) story, she moves then line and tolerates them, because he is not stopping and she does not see it as a red flag.

farfatched5• 4 months ago

I agree, and the point I challenge is the blog post's first:

Lines Will Move Further Away If They Aren’t Defined

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Sometimes I think some line is important, then I move closer to it, and realise the line is less important to me, and so I'll be less cautious of it.

Some might say "slippery slope!" or "boiling a frog!", but I think of it as me updating my values as I learn more.

Some people are prone to black-and-white thinking, and so I can see why they might be drawn to hard lines.

watwut4• 4 months ago

That is how you get Enron and generally how you get involved in fraud. That is how you create atrocities. Social approval from peers comes first, lines are moved, always because something that is approved by friends.

It is not about slipper slope, you are not falling, you are simply consistently making decisions based on what people around you approve. If you dont have lines, you dont have values. You are just doing what is easy or socially approved right now.

ryandrake• 4 months ago

Setting lines (or 'boundaries' as is the popular word in today's pop psychology) is not something you should do lightly. At the end of the day, a boundary is an ultimatum you're setting on someone else's behavior. Treat it that way. Sometimes ultimatums are necessary. Sometimes they're toxic. Don't be that person with a minefield full of unnecessary boundaries you expect everyone else to dance around and jump through as a condition of interacting with you.

danaris2• 4 months ago

a boundary is an ultimatum you're setting on someone else's behavior

No, it's not.

A boundary is something you're saying about your behavior. "If you use racist language at me, I will have to end this conversation."

And much, much worse than someone with "a minefield full of unnecessary boundaries" is someone who has boundaries they don't tell you about.

You should only set boundaries that are real boundaries for you, not just whims or arbitrary decisions. But if you do have boundaries—and everyone does; if you think you don't, then you just haven't had someone cross them (or haven't realized that's what happened when they did)—you must communicate them in contexts where there's a real chance of them being crossed.

To do otherwise is unfair to everyone else and to yourself.

121789• 4 months ago

"setting a line" really means having solid principles to deal with situations. it doesn't mean you have to be rigid, but it does mean you have to proactively think about what you want and what is acceptable, so you have something to fall back on when situations get complex

I think this article is a pretty good complement to ask vs. guess culture https://jeanhsu.substack.com/p/ask-vs-guess-culture

in my experience, people from ask-heavy cultures will only respond to clear lines. otherwise they will just keep pushing. if you have people in your life who are very good at recognizing soft boundaries, you don't need this skill with them, but it will be helpful for people who ignore soft boundaries.

michaelt• 4 months ago

are you really going to cut a good friend off for not repaying a loan?

In my experience nobody asks me, their friend, for a (nontrivial) loan unless they've exhausted more conventional lines of credit. Bank loans, credit cards, getting their parents to bail them out.

The friends who I'd rely on to pay their debts don't need $500 from me to help cover their rent this month. And the friends who are already struggling with credit card debt ain't good credit risks, and don't need more debt added to the pile.

I'd sooner just gift them the $500 in the first place.

strken3• 4 months ago

I just loaned a friend $1k for rent and I have no idea whether he'll ever pay it back. I agree that it's healthier to think about it as a gift that may or may not make its way back.

Not being repaid is possibly a reason not to lend him any more money. I don't see it as a reason to cut contact with him, though.

justonceokay• 4 months ago

You outline an ideal but in my estimation probably 20% of people actively let others “set their lines” for them. They are so used to deferring decision making or suppressing their own feelings on the matter that they lose the ability to do it entirely. Maybe for them this article is a step in the right direction.

This next part is woo-woo, take it for what it’s worth.

When getting my massage license we had a whole day talking about how many people have chronic pain because they suppress negative emotion and it ends up on their body. Think “grin and bear it”. It turns out “bearing it” is a physical process in your body with negative consequences. You probably know someone like this who is very agreeable and also has very bad headaches, gut problems, strange pains/“fibromyalgia” symptoms. They’re always chasing a medical reason for their discomfort but maybe their discomfort is that they are holding in a lot of resentment instead of “holding their line” as the article puts it.

Stress is /always/ manifested physically in the body—what would it even mean to be stressed out but also totally physically relaxed? And as it turns out, letting other people stomp all over your intentions is very stressful.

groby_b2• 4 months ago

This is neat in theory, but unworkable in practice.

The hard line trigger almost always happens in a wider context. You often want the wider context, but it's impossible to fully define. Let's try a few examples from the article:

"Hard line: Annual raise is 0%" -> What if it comes with a much larger stock grant? Or additional paid time off? Or something else you value? Will you really just mechanistically quit?

"Hard line: A friend doesn’t repay an $X loan" -> really? What if, say, they lost their job? You want to make friendship contingent on your friends employed. There's a reason there's an adage saying "Don't loan money to a friend, you might need to decide whom you like more".

"Hard line: A government blatantly violates a constitutional amendment" -> Not even waiting for a court decision? What if it's Abraham Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus? Or Wilson enforcing the espionage act, if that's more your political leaning? What if the government first repeals the amendment - will you be pro-slavery if it's made legal?

The world isn't a series of if-then statements. Even a hard line requires more than a single condition - at best, that condition reminds you to re-evaluate where you are.

triceratops2• 4 months ago

"Hard line: Annual raise is 0%" -> What if it comes with a much larger stock grant? Or additional paid time off? Or something else you value? Will you really just mechanistically quit?

I don't want to be a pedant but more stock or time off are raises by another name. They're literally money the company gives you.

groby_b2• 4 months ago

You might value it differently, though.

The company also would be giving you money if they, e.g. , gave you sets of annual Disney tickets, or a family membership in a luxury gym.

That's the whole point - there's an unlimited amount of potential outcomes that your original hard limit doesn't cover. Of course your final decision can be targeted towards "net value to you", but fundamentally, you can only assess net value once you have the facts.

Your hard limit becomes "I'll quit if I don't like it". Which, really, you don't need a "hard limit" for.

rdevilla• 4 months ago

Overly general vibeslopped platitudes.

satisfice• 4 months ago

This article crosses a line for me.

The line is “It’s not necessarily helpful to be clear about lines.” combined with “who the hell are you to tell us how to live, kiddo?” with a little bit of “let’s all silently agree that each human should be defensive and prickly at all times instead of ever being soft and accommodating to their friends and family and colleagues.”

Some will downvote this comment just because I am being trying to be clear about my lines right now, which proves my point. If popularity matters to me, I need to do more smiling and shrugging.

throwaway290• 4 months ago

The article is slop. No human ever talks about domestic abuse or heart attacks like that

Animats• 4 months ago

Here's a remark I made about setting boundaries in a completely different forum:

More from the pasture: The herd has settled. The chestnut mare is boss, and she's a good alpha. My paint mare is second. The old draft horse gelding is third, and the grey is fourth. Today I went into the pasture to catch the paint. I call her, and she comes to me. But chestnut boss comes up and herds the paint away from me. So I have to have a talk with the boss.

I make eye contact with her, and walk up to her. She glares at me, but doesn't show hostility. I wave my hands a little at waist level, and she backs up one step. That's a mild submission, and all I needed. Now I can halter the paint mare. The boss mare watches closely, but does not interfere.

As someone else says, handling horses will teach you about setting boundaries in a very practical way.

acuozzo• 4 months ago

Boundaries are a privilege available only to those able to deal with the consequences of enforcing them.

awakeasleep• 4 months ago

Not having boundaries is the privilege of those with resources to replace what is lost through actions of their transgressors

plagiarist• 4 months ago

I wish I had learned to do this years ago. I still do not know how to do this now.

G_o_D• 4 months ago

When abuse done to parents by their child. When parents keep denying lines have been crossed. They live in delusional state everything good, wait for one more day and it will stop. But it keeps aggravating till everything fall aparts, other members of family affected. When one child goes wrongway and parents are reluctant to accept it they kept clinging to them, they never settle upon line's crossed now it should stop as they can't hurt their child, they can't give up on them, ultimately that child starts feeling invincible whatever they may do they won't be stopped or punished by parents, and eventually parents unknowingly destroying life of their other child, other members of family, for their love of one bad element that they can't give up. Thats my personal experience, having my life destroyed, good happy smiling family teared apart, because one of sibling gone wrong way started abusing our parents, and they did'nt drew lines, kept forgiving.

jancsika• 4 months ago

This is missing the most important step: get out there and practice.

You're not going to succeed at steps #6 and #7 in situations as dire as what the author describes without practicing a bunch. You have to choose low stakes, real situations to gain experience:

* a cashier asks you if you want to round up by donating to charity

* a friend asks if you want to do an activity with them, and you do not want to do that activity with them

* someone suggests splitting the check down the middle, but you only had a tiny side salad

* etc.

You can of course handle these however you want. But if you want to learn to set a line when it's important, you should have already practiced in a dozen or so cases like this, without apologizing: No, thank you / No, I'm not into that / I'm leaving enough to pay for my tiny side salad plus a nice tip

Practice doesn't guarantee you won't buckle in tough situations. But you'll definitely buckle if you don't.

farfatched5• 4 months ago

I've wondered how some people can be so calm/clear in difficult situations like chaotic press releases, or interviews, or ...

I had figured it was experience + natural skill. How much are these people actively practicing?

readthenotes1• 4 months ago

For most public jobs, there is a lot of practice and preparation.

tonymet• 4 months ago

so glad that slippery slopes returned to the overton window. What a relief.

sidrag22• 4 months ago

Automate the action. For example, write a script that looks to see if the friend who borrowed money ever paid it back by a certain date. If current_date > deadline_date & money_repaid = false, then send an automated email unfriending them.

email contents: Hey, btw im not ur friend anymore. regards, not your friend

skyberrys• 4 months ago

When is taking an action not associated with a line? What if you just enjoy taking action?

kappuchino• 4 months ago

My line is: No advice from llms. This seems to be one. Sigh.

wvh• 4 months ago

I feel trying to codify human behaviour into simple rules is pretty tough.

Playfully rough intercourse might be the best ever, or turn out quite horrible at the wrong time; the only difference being subtle difference in mood of the parties involved. Same for using somebody as an emotional trashcan, or making a semi-offensive humorous joke about somebody. There's no objective truth.

Boundaries are very fluent and dynamic, depending on moods and trust between parties. Knowing when to give in and being able to walk those rough edges is often what makes life interesting and people good partners and friends.

cwmoore• 4 months ago

I like this take. Fluid and dynamic are keys here. There are almost always fluctuating differences in power, status, preparedness, or individual goals that ought to be considered, rather than an abstract ideal equality or fixed structural relationship. The fight, flight, or freeze and other instinctive responses may defy logic but need to be tolerated and respected, and the give and take over time balanced out fairly.

Set the Line Before It's Crossed

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