15 Years of Forking

Did you read the same article as me? The word is singularly used in the context of how do you earn money as a project, i.e. sustain the effort. It's a bit of a leap to imply this is impure unless they made some contract stating the opposite or are doing something dark.

HDBaseT• 4 months ago

You can however of course swap out the default Search Engine with Google or whatever privacy focused replacement (e.g. DuckDuckGo, Kagi, etc).

chii• 4 months ago

You either die an open source project, or live long enough to see yourself become ad-driven in the name of sustainability.

Firefox has already done so to google, and when a fork is big enough, they certainly will hear the siren's call.

renewiltord5• 4 months ago

You’re right 100% The guy literally sold his browser to an online advertising company and then bought it back. Why do you think startpage is the default? Look up the online advertising company that owns it and then look up who he sold the browser to before taking it back.

ThrowawayTestr2• 4 months ago

Have you ever sent a donation to Alex?

renewiltord5• 4 months ago

Why would I donate to someone who is willing to sell my attention?

sersi• 4 months ago

I mean first thing I do in any browser is change the search engine so it's not like it affects me in any way. I don't expect opensource projects to never make deals that give them some money, I just want them to be fully transparent when they do. Waterfox is transparent and clearly states who and how they sell their user data to.

jameshush• 4 months ago

Had the pleasure of working with Alex while at System1. Great guy. If I remember correctly I got one tiny change merged into Waterfox that's probably since been undone in the years since :-).

tommica• 4 months ago

The ads on default search partner is a fine compromise - reality is that projects need money, and if this helps them (and makes it less dependant on donations) then great! As long as the ad blocking happens elsewhere, it is fine.

I need to move back to waterfox again...

MrAlex948• 4 months ago

Yes, enabled everywhere - and it will just be a simple toggle to also enable it on the search partner page, no hoops to jump through.

Vinnl• 4 months ago

Reminds me of Netscape Navigator adding a popup blocker, but also adding the ability to allowlist sites - so that it could have the Netscape website allowlisted by default.

ErigmolCt3• 4 months ago

This is how we keep the lights on

BoredPositron• 4 months ago

Sorry, I still can't get over the system1 shit in 2020.

MrAlex948• 4 months ago

I get the scepticism but IMO the reaction at the time was rough and I partially get why.

System1 is a search syndication company. Their business is contextual ads on search results - no PII, no tracking profiles, no behavioural targeting. It's functionally the same model as DuckDuckGo. If I'd sold to DDG, I don't think anyone would've batted an eyelid.

I get it, the timing (privacy browser sold to company with "ad" in its description) looked terrible in a headline and I take responsibility for not communicating it better at the time, which I feel like wouldn't have led to such a massive furor.

kajika91• 4 months ago

I am surprise there is no mention of Librewolf here. The differences of Librewolf and Waterfox is pretty hard to grasp, I am digging a little bit but so far I guess I would say using any of them is still way better than the main alternatives.

Librewolf is, to me, the way better alternative as this is really in the FOSS mindset : a tool for everyone to use and by anyone to contribute. Seeing their plateform alone (Lemmy/Matrix/Codeberg, they also have a reddit community it seems) you can already see this is an other world than Waterwolf's bluesky/reddit/github. To be fair I can understand the SNS part but the github is a big redflag to me.

As usual I can see people that are very probably sincere in their goals not realizing the way they are going will lead to the usual enshitification: company focus, brave dependency, etc.

I note that Waterfox seems to legally originate from UK and it is refreshing to have an ecosystem that is not centralized in 1 country : for the sake of everyone it is better not to rely to much on 1 legislator (see age verification for instance).

MrAlex948• 4 months ago

Librewolf and Waterfox have always had different goals. Waterfox has always had a more opinionated take on defaults and privacy. Essentially the goal has been keep the web as private as possible without breaking it (I know Librewolf is more aggressive there and that sometimes leads to website breakages) and I think I've managed that well, especially with the implementation of Oblivious DNS by default.

The upside of Librewolf being a community project is also IMO its downside - there isn't any accountability and with the current climate around the world becoming more hostile to online services, I think governance is hugely important, which is why I've tried to collate everything as much as I can: https://www.waterfox.com/docs/policies/company-information/

At the end of the day, if something goes wrong, at least with Waterfox I can be held accountable.

adrianwaj2• 4 months ago

There was a recent comment: "if you don't know: any browser extension can read input/password fields across all site(s) you gave it access to (yeah, it's crazy but unfortunately true)."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47553048

Would either WF or LW fix that? Is it true?

lproven2• 4 months ago

The differences of Librewolf and Waterfox is pretty hard to grasp

I use Waterfox on Linux and one of the things I like the most is that it works with the global menu bar in Unity, Xfce and so on. LibreWolf, in my testing, does not. My experiment with it ended there, TBH. (Neither did Floorp.)

Hopping between Waterfox and Firefox is easy because Waterfox works with Mozilla Sync. I think LibreWolf might not, and I have read somewhere that it disables the Mozilla password manager.

I find Waterfox UI and interop better, so I use it.

Librewolf may be even more private, but the poor UI was a deal-breaker for me. YMMV.

jdbernard• 4 months ago

LibreWolf can work with Mozilla Sync, they just disable it by default.

ErigmolCt3• 4 months ago

In practice, I think it comes down to what you value more

zettabomb• 4 months ago

I remember using Waterfox when it was new. I moved away from it when Firefox started pushing 64 bit builds natively, and I've stuck with it since then. Recently though it does seem as if they might be going down a dark path, so perhaps I'll consider switching again. I remember Waterfox was hard forked after Quantum became a thing, in order to keep support with XPI - is that still the case?

MrAlex948• 4 months ago

The hard fork was "Waterfox Classic", which just became unsustainable to maintain.

Rather than support for XPI (which is just the packaging for Firefox webextensions), the current version of Waterfox does still support bootstrapped extensions - in theory anyone can still write one, with access to all the privileged JavaScript APIs typically not accessible to MV2/MV3 webextensions.

It's not widely used though, there are two repos I'm aware of that take advantage of this:

https://github.com/xiaoxiaoflood/firefox-scripts/tree/master...

https://github.com/onemen/TabMixPlus/

kaluga• 4 months ago

whether you use waterfox or librewolf, having anything outside of Blink is the only thing keeping the open web breathing.

red_admiral2• 4 months ago

Mozilla: Break free from big tech - our products put you in control of a safer, more private internet experience.

(Adds AI that needs 7 about:config entries to disable, until users roast it enough that they add an off switch.)

Waterfox: And we still don’t have AI in the browser. That hasn’t changed. The browser’s job is to load web pages, keep your data private, and get out of the way. It seems other browsers have forgotten that.

At some point I think we should just redirect the Firefox funding to Waterfox.

darkwater2• 4 months ago

From TFA:

The original text implied Brave special cases ads on their search partner’s page - they don’t. Brave blocks third party ads on all websites by default, regardless of any partnership, and offers an additional aggressive mode that blocks first party ads as well. Waterfox’s approach of allowing text ads on the default search partner page is our own decision for sustainability,

I would like to stress on the last sentence:

  Waterfox’s approach of allowing text ads on the default search partner page is our own decision for sustainability

So basically they are permitting ads from their paying partners.

MrAlex948• 4 months ago

I think that's an unfair framing. No one is paying Waterfox to allow ads - it's a revenue share from the default search engine (which I've always been transparent about)[1], same as every other independent browser that has a search partner. It's not an "acceptable ads" programme where advertisers pay to be whitelisted.

[1] https://www.waterfox.com/docs/policies/revenue-model/

red_admiral2• 4 months ago

Which is still miles above Firefox (Win11/x64, 149.0, EU), where you have to untick everying from "Suggestions from Firefox" to "Trending search suggestions" to "allow personalised extension recommendations" to "Recommended stories" and "sponsored shortcuts" on the home screen, because [1]https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-suggest?as=u&ut...

We partner with adMarketplace, Yelp and AccuWeather to provide sponsored suggestions that enhance your browsing experience with helpful, context-based information.

And if you leave Firefox for a while you get the "welcome back" bar that lets you ... uninstall ublock with one click before you've realised it.

Waterfox has text ads on the default search page based on your search query, not based on tracking you [2]. And it's really easy to turn off.

[1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-suggest?as=u&ut... and https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/sponsor-privacy?as=u&ut...

[2] https://www.startpage.com/privacy-please/startpage-articles/...

ErigmolCt3• 4 months ago

I do think projects like Waterfox are valuable precisely because they push back on some of Mozilla's product decisions

novachen• 4 months ago

the search partnership model is one of the few things that actually works for independent browser projects. tried donations, tried subscriptions — the conversion rates are brutal. having a transparent default search deal that users can toggle off is probably the best compromise between sustainability and user trust.

FuriouslyAdrift• 4 months ago

or PaleMoon

xacky• 4 months ago

There is no pure browser anymore. The little red hen of Google funds everything, and forks like Waterfox just change a few parts of the UI but still rely on the upstream for all actual browser code. Even Mozilla was bootstrapped by AOL-Time Warner Back in the day. If you look at Ladybird they already have lots of ad companies funding it as well and will demand its enshittification if it gets popular.

pgwalsh• 4 months ago

Have you checked out Ladybird, it's independent.

YoshiRulz• 4 months ago

Which of Ladybird's sponsors are adtech? None of their websites proclaim them to be in the advertising business at least.

dijit• 4 months ago

That 2019 logo looks fantastic.

The modern logo reminds me of Microsoft Word for Mac 2010 :(

totierne2• 4 months ago

20 years a forker?

tgtweak2• 4 months ago

Adless monetization is a very difficult challenge - something I've worked on many times over the years (compute-monetization, shopping-commission monetization, payment interchange monetization) and it's always been very difficult to compete with ads. I think the waterfox approach of "ads if you're OK with it" opt-in and sane defaults is the better one, but it's very difficult to make ends meat compared to competitors offering full monetization on by default when you're only getting it (and getting less per search) if users opt-in.

Compute/resource monetization is the one after all these years that has done the best at replacing ads as a means of monetization for users, and it requires a very intelligent scheduling system + ethical ecosystem to work (most have just tried running crypto miners that cost users more electricity than they earn).

tgtweak2• 4 months ago

Also, the fact waterfox has almost zero telemetry out of the box and doesn't even have a bonafide number for active users as a result is a good hint at how sincere the "anti-tracking" ethos is applied. Most open source applications have some form of telemetry, even "anonymous" telemetry - but this does really stand out.

15 Years of Forking

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