Valve: Linux More Open Than Windows 8 for Gaming

http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/10/valve-linux-more-viable-than-windows-8.html

by dartttt • 14 years ago

149 93 14 years ago

Falling3• 14 years ago

I'm really excited by this. I've always thought of gaming as one of the things really holding linux back from taking a more reasonable market share on the desktop (I said one of). Even people who prefer linux are forced to dual-boot or use a VM. This certainly isn't a magic bullet, but I sure hope it makes linux a more viable and mainstream choice.

Alterlife2• 14 years ago

The problem is as far as I've seen: people don't shift 'just because' or even when the other option is 'slightly better'. In fact, Linux is going to be a sub-standard choice for gamers for a good amount of time even after steam for Linux catches on with the Linux community. The Windows games that people already purchased aren't going to vaporise there's a lot holding them back to the old platform.

People will install Linux enmasse when Linux gets something that the other options don't have -- when desirable games come out that can ONLY play on Linux and no other platform.

takluyver• 14 years ago

I'd be a bit more optimistic than that. It's not unusual to meet technically minded people who use Linux for getting stuff done, but dual boot Windows for gaming. If enough games are available for Windows, that's going to increase the market for Linux-only computers, which is another key part of the puzzle.

Symmetry2• 14 years ago

People aren't homogeneous. This won't be enough to make Linux a better option for the majority of people, but it does mitigate a really severe pain point. I've kept my desktop a Windows machine for years because of gaming, but use Linux on my laptop. Now, it looks like the two crucial publishers for me (Valve and Paradox) are going to support Linux, and honestly that's good enough given I sort of wanted to switch anyways. I'll probably keep my other partition around, but I expect I'll be doing most of my gaming on Linux once this is ready.

And the more people who switch to gaming on Linux for reasons like mine, the more companies will tend to support it.

r0s• 14 years ago

I disagree, Linux only needs content parity. The hook is price. As long as gamers are in a student/lower age demographic price is the main barrier to purchase, and I'd argue, the main driving force behind piracy of Windows.

Historiopode• 14 years ago

I would argue that your hopes would be better served by Unity Engine[1] and Mono[2] than by Steam. While high-budget releases have almost completely ignored the Mac and Linux platforms despite Valve's effort, the popularity of those tools has brought a very large number of mid-tier and indipendent developers to publish on them. While they are not as popular, they still help to make them look a little bit less like a desolated wasteland of work and productivity. :)

Let's also not forget that those same high-budget productions rely heavily on the current set of graphics (and audio) drivers, and there is hardly any effort to bring the Mac and linux up to par on that front.

[1]http://unity3d.com/

[2]http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

Karunamon7• 14 years ago

FTFA>Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore.

If having an app store is the criterion for not being an open platform, not even Ubuntu qualifies. And last I checked, I can still compile and run whatever I damn well please on Win8.

There wasn't even this level of derp when Apple launched the app store for OS X.

Straight up FUD. Windows will always be the premier gaming platform as long as it has the majority of the desktop base, and by extension the best driver support, and by extension the most games written for it.

Valve is going to kill themselves to attempt to make a point, at this rate.

h2s• 14 years ago

This is quite a ropey writeup of the talk by the looks of it. I imagine what was actually said was probably different and might even have made sense.

gagege• 14 years ago

My question is, did Valve say that or is that just some really bad editorializing from the person who wrote the article?

I bet it's the latter.

Alterlife2• 14 years ago

Larry Ellison said a lot of interesting things about the cloud.

Steve Jobs said a few things about the tablet foam factor.

Even if the gentleman from Valve did say that, they're not just going to throw away their business. They're probably playing for the 25% or so Linux gaming market that the Humble Bundles have shown exists.

w1ntermute8• 14 years ago

> If having an app store is the criterion for not being an open platform, not even Ubuntu qualifies.

It doesn't say "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore," so you misinterpreted that.

The difference between the Windows 8 app store and Ubuntu's Software Center is that you can easily add 3rd party repositories to the latter. Also keep in mind that on Windows RT (the ARM version of Windows 8), you can't install any apps from outside the app store, period.

> Windows will always be the premier gaming platform as long as it has the majority of the desktop base, and by extension the best driver support, and by extension the most games written for it.

Linux doesn't have to have the best driver support to be sufficient as a gaming platform. If it has enough driver support for games to run well, it has a chance. And the proprietary NVIDIA Linux drivers right now work quite well in my experience. There are a few bugs, but nothing that can't be ironed out with a little time.

Just because Windows has the "majority of the desktop base" doesn't mean it has to be the premiere gaming platform. Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.

If I were Valve, I would start programs such as "if you spend X hours playing Steam games on Linux, you get a discount on your next game." That would have a huge impact on what gamers are using to play games, and could push other developers to port their games to Linux. As the middleman between millions of gamers and hundreds of game studios, Valve has enormous power here.

Sumaso• 14 years ago

The fact of the matter is, of the 250+ games I have in my steam library <50 of them work with mac. This ties me to windows.

When I run windows 8, I can run steam and all my games, they dont magically stop working. While windows 8 RT isnt an open platform, the windows i will be running on my laptops and my desktops will be.

I'm very disappointed in valves wording, and it shows how poorly their responding to their first real competition.

robododo2• 14 years ago

So when will Steam let me add third party repositories for software?

This is all FUD being spun up by Valve because they don't like competition for their app store.

w0utert• 14 years ago

>> And the proprietary NVIDIA Linux drivers right now work quite well in my experience. There are a few bugs, but nothing that can't be ironed out with a little time.

The proprietary NVIDIA drivers for Linux are built directly from the same source base as the Windows drivers, the only difference being the interface layer between the kernel and the driver. Feature set and performance are identical to the Windows drivers.

I'm not aware of any known critical bugs in the kernel parts. Usually when stuff breaks in the NVidia drivers, it's because of a combination of a kernel update and sloppy package management by the distribution. None of this should be an issue if Valve decides to release some kind of Linux based 'Steam loader' that boots directly to the game itself, or make their own Linux distro with tight control over the kernel and GPU drivers.

I'm not sure how good the ATI linux drivers are these days though.

cube13• 14 years ago

>The difference between the Windows 8 app store and Ubuntu's Software Center is that you can easily add 3rd party repositories to the latter.

Or just install the other store's software onto Win8 or OSX. Still FUD.

SkyMarshal• 14 years ago

>Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.

This is true, especially among the subset of gamers who build their own computers. They are particularly ripe for experimentation with Linux, and would represent the Innovator/Early Adopter stage in the TAL [1]. Get those guys on board and the rest may see it as new and cool and follow.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle*

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Karunamon7• 14 years ago

>It doesn't say "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore," so you misinterpreted that.

Then the article was not written clearly. I don't see Valve taking Apple to task for the MAS. There's no other valid way to interpret that sentence.

>Linux doesn't have to have the best driver support to be sufficient as a gaming platform. If it has enough driver support for games to run well, it has a chance.

I'd argue that it already does. There are plenty of games that run on Linux (hardly as many on windows, but you can easily say the drivers are "there").

>Just because Windows has the "majority of the desktop base" doesn't mean it has to be the premiere gaming platform. Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.

Disagree. Look at the Mac - decent support, decent performance, it has AAA titles on it that are also on other platforms, yet you won't ever see AAA exclusive titles being released on the mac. And why would you? Think like a publisher - you're artificially limiting your audience. The number of people who will jump platforms (or even maintain two platforms) just for your title is infinitesimal. Until such time as that happens, the mac is an also-ran. Same for Linux - and Linux has a huge advantage over Mac in that there's zero cost barrier.

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BasDirks• 14 years ago

Big boy betting against Valve in a bout of cheap indignation.

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Dylan168072• 14 years ago

I suppose it doesn't affect you if you compile everything yourself. But you can't run a Metro app that anyone else has compiled. Store or bust. That is a bad path. I certainly wouldn't say windows 8 is 'open'.

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Karunamon7• 14 years ago

>But you can't run a Metro app that anyone else has compiled.

It's metro - who cares? You get more functionality with the desktop.

On a less snarky note, yes you can. All that's necessary is your system has to trust the CA that signed the app - which is itself a few mouse clicks away.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/04/25/depl...

I've personally done this to load a leaked Skype beta for Metro. Put the requisite commands in a powershell batch file and it becomes so easy your gran can do it.

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k3n• 14 years ago

> When asked about new Team Fortress 2 Hats, he said that some rumors have been circulating but he has no information about it.

Glad to see we've got our priorities in order!

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indiecore2• 14 years ago

> When asked about new Team Fortress 2 Hats, he said that some rumors have been circulating but he has no information about it.

Did people really ask about hats at the Ubuntu Developer Conference?

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YokoZar3• 14 years ago

This was a random audience question during the Q+A at the end of the talk, jokingly asked before a real question

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indiecore2• 14 years ago

Ah, that makes sense then.

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bonzoesc3• 14 years ago

And if they were passing out a limited number of Unique or Unusual hats, it'd be like passing out Benjamins. The TF2 hat market is fascinating.

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aristidb2• 14 years ago

I totally need to get a gaming-capable computer to run Linux on, and install Steam on it! (Currently my Linux laptop just has old Intel graphics which is ... rather underpowered. Also need to wait for Steam-for-Linux to become public, obviously.)

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navs• 14 years ago

Now that's something I don't know if I could change. I've always installed Linux on my older, outdated hardware. I've never purchased a brand new, top of the line machine and thought about installing Linux.

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aristidb2• 14 years ago

When I bought my Linux laptop, it _was_ brand-new. But that was in 2009. :)

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bryanlarsen• 14 years ago

I did, and then overclocked it. Totally worth it to combat my tendency to switch over to hacker news while compiling.

http://xkcd.com/303/

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YokoZar3• 14 years ago

The title (and article) is really bad journalism. I'm an Ubuntu Developer at the summit and listened to this talk live about an hour ago and he said nothing of the sort.

He did say that Microsoft and Apple are moving away from the open platform model and that Valve has always been in favor of open platforms. Linux is the best option for a continuing open platform in the future.

Actual video of the talk will be online within a day or so, so I suggest you watch that instead of reading contrite stories like this one.

Here is a much better article about the talk from OMG Ubuntu: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/10/valve-talk-steam-for-linu...

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astrodust3• 14 years ago

In this case "open platform" means "platform where a publisher other than the operating system vendor can make a profit".

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Shorel• 14 years ago

Is there anything wrong with making a profit ?

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furyofantares2• 14 years ago

In my view the ability for anyone to hack on their own device is valuable, too. I learned to program because GORILLAS.BAS came with the source code (and I think required you to view it in order to run it!)

I use closed devices with some mixed feelings about it, the thing I'm most sad to support is the move toward devices with bigger barriers toward tinkering than what I had as a kid. I'm probably more accepting of it when it's a device I never had as a kid, but when barriers are constructed for once-open platforms it starts to irk me.

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bonzoesc3• 14 years ago

Publishers can make profits on closed platforms; in fact, they're almost essential due to the work it takes getting to market on a closed platform.

Middle-man distributors, however, don't typically profit from platforms. Valve's position on platforms that have built-in preferred digital distribution systems isn't surprising, they're using their position as OS vendor to boost their digital software distribution business.

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rossjudson• 14 years ago

The "closed" part of the ecosystem is Windows RT, in the sense that apps for that platform must come from the Windows Store. Windows 8 runs Steam very well, and has no such restrictions. Steam's not available on the iPad either.

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noblethrasher• 14 years ago

Those points were addressed in this article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/

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ralfn• 14 years ago

You do realize both Microsoft as well as Apple are trying to separate the consumer market from the high end, professional market. The cheapest Apple device that allows side-loading costs 999 euro's. The cheapest win8 device that allows side loading will be at least 800 euro's.

I understand why. The biggest problem of the convential desktop is the ugly compomize between freedom, power users and professionals on one end, and casual consumer usage at the other end.

But that does mean, many of Valves current customers, that buy midrange devices, will end up on RT or iOS.

And the crowd on this site, will likely find the devices aimed for them moving to a more expensive and exclusive niche.

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110011001100• 14 years ago

How is windows app store different from Ubuntu app store

Especially considering that anything not from an app store is much easier to install on Windows (double click on GUI installer) than on Ubuntu (mess around with dependencies, and compiling stuff). Everything on Ubuntu comes from the Ubuntu store, or the Aptitude store. Not an easy task to download something like an exe off the web and install it

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slowpoke4• 14 years ago

With all due respect, you have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about.

First of all, every damn time someone brings up the "you just have to double click the installer on Windows" argument, they leave out the steps before that (most prominently, locate and download a safe copy of said installer).

Second, I don't know what FUD you have been told about Linux on the desktop, but contrary to what you assert about it, no, installing applications on almost all widespread Linux distributions I can spontaneously think of - except Gentoo - requires neither compiling nor messing around with dependencies.

Third, no, not everything on Ubuntu comes from the "Ubuntu store" or "Apitude store" - in fact, neither of those exists. If you are talking about the Ubuntu Software Center, that's basically just a fancy front-end for APT - as is Aptitude. If I remember correctly, the UCS also allows purchasing of some commercial software as of recently (I don't use Ubuntu).

In addition, Ubuntu (and derived distributions) have a thing called Personal Package Archives, whose very concept is to make it possible to easily add your own package sources to complement the official repositories. The UCS can handle those, too.

Also, there's a very important distinction between a package repository as used in many Linux distributions and a closed app store: the former is, at least to an extent, managed by the community and the users. You cannot say that of the latter.

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macspoofing• 14 years ago

>Valve has always been in favor of open platforms.

Steam?

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JadeNB• 14 years ago

> The title (and article) is really bad journalism.

I don't know if the title has been changed since it was posted—I suspect not, since it matches the URL—but what it actually says is that Linux is more viable than Windows for gaming (which is probably more surprising; but, in any case, is certainly a different point).

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tomku2• 14 years ago

I can only assume that he actually means "we have less competition on Linux", because my experience with Windows 8 as a gamer has been pretty damn good. Everything gaming-related works just as well as Win7, as far as I can tell. The games available on the app store are alright, but I don't see it competing with Steam when it comes to the high-powered AAA titles.

Edit: From another comment, it sounds like this is a bad quote, and that the Valve guy said nothing of the sort. Sorry to Valve for what I wrote previously, and shame on UbuntuVibes...

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barrkel2• 14 years ago

Does Crysis 2 work? The guys at bit-tech.net couldn't get it to run on Windows 8: http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/software/2012/10/26/windows-8-p...

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RegEx• 14 years ago

I haven't had many problems running games on Windows Vista/7, but the times I did have problems were extremely time consuming. I'm talking in the range of 10+ hours. Bioshock 2, for example, was plagued with the Games for Windows Live, which itself would only work with particular .NET runtimes you had to find yourself, plus very subtle sound driver configurations that had to be made (and I still can't get the game to run through Steam). 99% of games work out of the box, as expected. That 1%, though, is quite a headache.

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tomku2• 14 years ago

I don't own Crysis 2 to test, sorry. The only program that I had installed that flat-out broke due to the upgrade was actually Media Player Classic Home Cinema, which works fine now after updating to the latest version.

Edit: To expand a little bit on that, I've been a Windows user since the 3.1 days. I've done most (if not all) of the upgrades during that time frame at some point, and there are always programs that break. Games tend to be particularly fragile in this respect, possibly due to relying on undocumented/unsupported behavior to squeeze out extra performance.

Win98->XP (ME? what's that?) and XP->Vista were both particularly bad for games, as I think anyone old enough to be a PC gamer during those times remembers. However, it wasn't because XP or Vista weren't 'viable' for gaming - the games just needed patches to adjust to new OS behavior or remove reliance on deprecated APIs. Win7->Win8 is more comparable to Vista->Win7, judging by my experience so far. There are things that will break and certain games will need patches, but it won't be anything like the days of needing "Vista patches" for 90% of your games.

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Magenta• 14 years ago

They "need" pulseaudio? Yikes. I was hoping people had stopped using it D:

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iso8859-1• 14 years ago

what's wrong with it?

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erikpukinskis• 14 years ago

Does anyone find it bizarre that Valve is so upset about the Windows Store not being "open" when they, in Steam, run an app store that is far, FAR harder to get your software distributed in?

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bvdbijl• 14 years ago

No, as the Windows store is baked into windows 8 so Microsoft controls to to bottom but steam only controls your games.

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Symmetry2• 14 years ago

No, and I don't mind that it's impossible to get my code into all the other supplemental package repos you can use on Ubuntu either.

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loboman• 14 years ago

Valve in cooperation with Canonical. Now we know why Ubuntu needs to have some secret projects.

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hdra3• 14 years ago

I don't really get the reaction by Valve.. How is Windows 8 is going to affect Steam?? Current users will still be able to install Steam. The only thing that the Win8 app store going to sell is the Metro/WinRT apps, which is a completely different thing than what Steam is offering... are they worried about their future plan or something?

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ed_blackburn• 14 years ago

If companies like Valve find it difficult to distribute their content without paying a vendor tax, I fully anticipate some kind of boot to Acme Games Inc. bootstrapping.

All one requires is a lite distro that'll fire up steam. They can ship it on USB sticks. If it's not possible to boot from USB, just install it from the USB. Would make the physical packaging smaller.

Imagine popping into you local shop, picking up a free (or nominal) USB. Installing the mega lite distro before downloading and playing games.

Whilst the vendors will inch towards owning the ecosystems for their platforms, they'll always be innovators who will circumnavigate. Unless you're leasing the hardware under license I struggle to see one can realistically prevent OS installations on standard hardware.

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davidgerard• 14 years ago

Valve wants to be the Linux app store for proprietary apps. Proprietary apps presently tend to crap all over the system in unpredictable ways; Valve offers not having to worry about this.

This is why Valve is so dead against Windows 8: the Microsoft app store.

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