Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/28/microsoft_immigration_proposal/

by matthewphiong • 14 years ago

27 55 14 years ago

theregister.co.uk

mtgx• 14 years ago

Why do work visas even have to cost this much? I understand US is going through a job crisis, but I fear it's getting too protectionist. Protectionism never has good results in the long term.

mseebach8• 14 years ago

So, what's being proposed here is a tax on fairly rich people who can't vote. For "should", it shouldn't cost anything, or, at least, not more than a turist visa (I think ETSA is something like $14).

There is some sense in the idea that the native population should be protected against unfair competition, but there is no evidence that this is the issue - Microsoft (and many other tech companies) legitimately can't fill these jobs, so there's literally no downside to opening the floodgates [of eligible H1-Bs].

wheelerwj5• 14 years ago

i don't know how they can't fill these jobs. There are 12 million people out of work, you telling me MS can't figure out a win-win solution?

wheelerwj5• 14 years ago

this is total bs. MS has a massive work force of contract workers who are paid poorly and get treated worse and i am pretty certain that other companies do the same. If they took that 10k ($60m usd total)bounty and applied it to legit training in the US they would have a better, cheaper, and more loyal workforce and the money would stay local.

This notion that we have to hire over-seas is not correct at all and while I am all in favor or the immigration of foreign skill/knowledge/work ethic into the US, to call it a 'crisis' is nothing more than a publicity stunt to pull attention away from the fact that they are outsourcing jobs when they could be paying that money into the local economies.

JumpCrisscross2• 14 years ago

I worked at a bank. We needed a team of six people with advanced and specific skills. We could only find four. We tried to import two more. Computer at immigration said no. So we cancelled the offer to the four and hired six in Singapore. That unit has now grown to twenty-five of which five had to be pulled in from India. That's how reality works.

salem• 14 years ago

The reality is, if they are low-pay contractors, they are probably not in possession of skills that would make them worth the cost and risk of hiring full time. Labor laws protecting less in-demand workers is another issue all together.

checoivan• 14 years ago

On the upside there are more visas, the side effect is it makes it harder for early startups to hire H1Bs due to the increased cost. 10K for the H1 plus 15K for the green card. Usually both are done together or really close since you need a green card application in place to extend an H1 past 6 years. That's 25K per employee only for processing vs ~ 2K today.

toyg5• 14 years ago

A one-off $10K fee per hire is chump change, compared to the alternative: if your H1-B costs 50K per year + 10K one-off, he's still much cheaper than a US-based developer who wants 60K per-year -- and that's not exactly the top going rate.

Corporations understand Marx much better than workers ever did.

SeckinJohn• 14 years ago

It is not legal to underpay H1Bs. They literally should not be able to fill those positions with Americans if they are complaining about this.

toyg5• 14 years ago

I'm curious to know which sort of rocket science Microsoft does that is not taught at US universities.

Of course they are unable to fill positions at a given salary level. It's quite hard to find tomato-pickers at slave-like wages.

lrobb• 14 years ago

It might not be legal, but it's easy to do.

joshz• 14 years ago

Microsoft doesn't pay that low. Here's[1] some data from 2 years back. Friend of mine got over 100k last year, they treat H1-B holders well.

[1] http://goo.gl/P0UCj

toyg5• 14 years ago

And what's the cost of a developer leaving after 6 months for better opportunities? Periodic raises are part of overall costs, and again a locked-in visa-holder is cheaper to "maintain" in that regard.

Nitramp• 14 years ago

You're neglecting the salary of the employee that you hired in that, aren't you? The 60k are on top of the salary you're paying, which would typically be comparable to the US-based developer's.

Companies don't hire people on H1B to save money, but because they are starving for talent.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't understand that you referred to the employee's salary with the 50K. Are you assuming that H1B employees are payed less in general?

toyg5• 14 years ago

What? - US developer salary: 60k per year (cheap areas etc etc). Over three years: 180k. - Foreign visa: 50k per year + 10k one off. Over three years: 160k.

And of course, the foreigner is locked into the company for X years, whereas a local can piss off after three months.

Note: I say that as an Italian-born UK resident who looked into the US visa system and found it, er, suboptimal for everyone involved except corporations.

andrewcooke• 14 years ago

marx is not synonymous with arithmetic (or even basic bookkeeping).

toyg5• 14 years ago

Nothing to do with that; it's about harnessing the reserve army of labour, which is practically unlimited at global scale.

beedogs2• 14 years ago

It's utterly fucked how restrictive and exploitative the US immigration system really is.

It cost me about $5000 of my own money and a year and a half of my own time to become a permanent resident of Australia, with no advanced degree and no cash reserve needed. That route is literally impossible for potential U.S. immigrants. You either have to marry your way in, play the greencard lottery, have a PhD, or buy your way in via an investor-class visa.

The alternative, if you can get one, is an H1-B visa that ties you to a single employer who's free to take full advantage of your situation for half a decade. And this is what Microsoft wants more of.

seppo00102• 14 years ago

The H1-B is not tied to a single employer. But it only allows one month in case of lay off.

malandrew2• 14 years ago

IMHO the H1-B visa should have a scheme like allowing 3 months for every every year worked. Since many tech jobs are filled for 2-4 years, that would give people 6-12 months to find something new.

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost a company to takeover an existing visa?

akurilin2• 14 years ago

Aren't there restrictions on switching companies once your GC application has been filed?

ashayh2• 14 years ago

There is no 'grace' period of 1 month, it is technically 0 days after job loss or H1B expiry. However, when you enter the US, the Immigration officer at the airport may choose to give you a few days in addition to your H1B expiry date. That said, it is unlikely they will prosecute a H1B holder, if he overstays for a month or so.

akurilin2• 14 years ago

5 years is unrealistic unless you have a graduate degree and do not come from India or China.

dschiptsov• 14 years ago

How many years could pass, until they will figure out and develop a the same development process that brings Linux kernel and other wonders to us - a collaboration of engineers around the globe?

But wait, that means all you need is gcc, emacs, git sometimes ssh and internet connection and Paypall (sic.) account? How could they sell all that disconnected from reality, bloated crap they produce, spending billions per year?

The answer is quite easy - in order to get 200+k salaries and bonuses managers must maintain this bloated hierarchy and fabric-style sweatshops. Otherwise, who needs them?

But the real question is - why we still care about MS? Who cares about old Nokia phones or Delphi or Java or things like Novell Netware?))

JoeAltmaier• 14 years ago

All the political chestbeating -protecting America against foreign labor - seems pretty silly when discussing skilled jobs like software. Its like, you're in a lifeboat and trying to get to shore and 3 rowers short. People are clamoring to get into your boat - first thing, you ask them what country they're from? WTF?

Lets draw a new political circle containing everybody/anybody who can program. Lets call it New Abrainica. Let them all have free visas wherever they wish on the planet. How does this hurt anyone? Oh sure, temporarily some lame spot will have trouble getting someone to move there to work. But now they can also move the job to where the programmers are! Or get remote workers.

Hey, this already sort of happens. So what's the real issue? I'm not sure, but this conversation keeps coming up.

malandrew2• 14 years ago

What do people think about making companies pay a significant premium salary (25%) to H1-B visa holders over US citizens? Seems like this would allay concerns over companies using H1-B visas to keep salaries down. Basically companies would use H1-B visas when an equivalent people cannot be hired domestically. If this approach works then maybe eliminating caps is possible, since it should be a somewhat self-correcting system.

Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

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