Is 42 too old

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45196857

15 40 11 months ago

news.ycombinator.com

Considering making a move to software dev. I’ve heard a lot about ageism. Also that the market for jr devs is brutal. Am I wasting my time?

checker659• 11 months ago

What are you transitioning from?

fjfaase• 11 months ago

At your age, I guess it is rather important what you have to offer besides your software development skills. Do you have experience working in teams, a track record with working with people, or extensive knowledge in an adjacent field, such as electronics, IT, or one of the other sciences? Or do you have extensive knowledge of certain safety/security/medical regulations?

Is there some specific area in software engineering that you are drawn to or some application are? There are many applications fields of software development and I think in some large fields it will not be worth trying to compete with junior developers.

fzwang• 11 months ago

I second this. If you're trying to signal just on "I can code", then there will be fewer differentiating factors between you and younger people.

Typically, I don't think of software dev as an "industry" in itself, unless you're talking about dev tools etc, but that many industries depend on strong software. Your best bet is to target software problems related to your prior job. This way, your skillsets complement each other. You may not be the best at either side, but your ability to integrate the two could be a strong pt.

jleyank• 11 months ago

I'm way older, but I had the impression that 30-35 was already too old for casual consideration for software development outside specific fields? Which is depressing as science PhD's enter industry at the 26-30 age range...

codingdave2• 11 months ago

No, there are many of us with grey hair in the software industry.

42 is probably too old for the startup world, which is where the discussions on HN tend to focus, but that is really just one slice of the industry. There are a ton of jobs at larger non-tech companies, where ageism is not as much of a problem. It is slower-paced, lower-paid, more boring... and perfectly acceptable if all you are looking for is a solid stable job.

The bigger challenge is the "junior dev" problem. There is some harsh reality there. But you can probably fight through that if you look for software work in whatever industry you are coming from, so that your couple decades of prior experience is relevant to the work being done by any team you would join.

JustExAWS5• 11 months ago

I’m not going to give you the BS “you can do an anything if you put your mind to it” answer that many are going to give you here.

If you are in your 40s and 50s and have the experience “you should” for your age, up to date on technology and have built a great network, the world is your oyster.

If none of that is the case, getting a job as a junior developer at any age is a shit show right now. Hell it’s a shit show for people with experience when every job opening gets hundreds of applications within the first day.

al_borland• 11 months ago

I’d probably stay out of startups. A lot of companies need code written and most of them aren’t “tech” companies in the valley.

I think there is only 1 person on my team under 40.

Tony_Delco• 11 months ago

It’s never too late to learn something new, not even to start in software. Age can bring a different way of looking at problems, shaped by past experiences in different situations and environments.

The path can be tough at the beginning, but if you truly enjoy it, you’re not wasting your time, you’re investing in a new stage of your life.

And this is just my personal opinion: I believe a team should be as diverse as possible. The more different perspectives, the better. A 22-year-old junior doesn’t see things the same way as a 42-year-old junior, and both are valuable and perfectly compatible.

codegeek4• 11 months ago

Age is not the main issue. I mean it may make it more difficult but you have a bigger challenge. "Making a move to Software Dev" sounds like you will be entry level in Software world which is really hard right now especially with AI etc.

So the question is "why you if I can hire a 23 year old with possibly more energy, less baggage (most likely they can work longer hours and not have family/kids to worry about etc). That's possibly ageism but when there is a choice b/w an entry level Software Dev who is 23 vs who is 42, who do you think will get priority ?

Now, if you can differentiate yourself where your age becomes a plus and not minus, then we are talking. For example, one can assume you have a lot of real world experience, you have worked in tough conditions with real customers (whatever industry). Can you use that to your advantage and make a better case ? Then you can do it.

comprev4• 11 months ago

During interviews I make a point about flexibility due to not having my own family, and can also dedicate significantly more time to learning outside of work that perhaps many candidates of a similar age (40-45 bracket) are unable to. I have the same "free time" as a junior dev in their 20s... but with 20yrs Ops experience on top.

It does pay off though and I am delighted when colleagues approach me with a difficult problem to crack. I never take on formal ownership of the problem though, but if I do crack it, my input is well documented (and bonus points: I learned something new).

Cracking some hard problems has earned me a good reputation among the senior engineers & engineering management, and hopefully my future career will benefit from these relationships.

JustExAWS5• 11 months ago

That is the last tactic I would take at 51 - “I have grown children so I can work crazy hours and do side projects to keep up to date on technology.”

My value proposition is the “Joel Spolsky” value play “I’m smart and get things done” and I can talk them through my history of doing so. That can be either supporting sales by flying out to a customer site or being on a zoom call, leading a large cross discipline implementation, hands on keyboard going from an empty AWS account to a full architecture, deployment pipeline, and an ETL or online backend process with hands on development. They get professionalism not passion.

Don’t get me wrong, I am up to date on the latest back end tech in my niche, Gen AI and know when to use traditional machine learning techniques even though I’m going to defer to the specialists for ML implementations that can’t be done with managed services.

But what I am not going to do is work crazy hours.

codingdave2• 11 months ago

when there is a choice b/w an entry level Software Dev who is 23 vs who is 42, who do you think will get priority ?

Seems pretty ageist to even put the question that way. One could absolutely build up a list of specific criteria that often are more true with younger people, but if you don't articulate those criteria and base decisions upon them, and not the age of the candidate, that is straight-up ageism.

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

I don't think he is advocating for ageism. He is merely making an observation, which is absolutely true in most companies. You are more likely to get away with overworking and mistreating a youngster than someone with more life experience (who may also have other options and/or savings which gives them the ability to quit), so from an employer's perspective it's a no-brainer (just don't put it in writing, or handwave it as "culture fit" or similar BS).

There are of course some companies who value and capitalize on the experience of older people and have good work-life balance... just don't expect that in your average JS/blockchain/AI shop which is all tech seems to be currently.

GoldenMonkey• 11 months ago

It is absolutely a brutal job market for all software developers. Never seen anything like the current market. Seems like there is an oversupply of H1B's and recent graduates.

If Stanford Computer Science graduates aren't landing jobs.

And even 'AI Engineer' roles are hard to come by. I'd be wary.

JustExAWS5• 11 months ago

I’m always dumbfounded by the term “AI Engineer” unless you are actually working on the foundation models. Everything else is just knowing how to make AI calls, prompting and understanding RAG.

I’m not dismissing Gen AI at all, I’ve used it for three non chatbot projects so far and it’s made some really previous hard problems easy. But it was just a newer much easier tool in my tool belt that could have been done (probably better) with traditional ML techniques with much more development effort and maintenance overhead.

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

It's the next evolution of people branding themselves as "senior" developers just because they followed a Next.js tutorial and managed to deploy it on some PaaS (and having worked with such, I'm impressed they actually even managed that).

Problem is: it works. Being against it just puts you at a disadvantage, so enjoy your new "AI Engineer" title. Call yourself Senior AI Engineer while you're at it.

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

Salaried software dev work is a waste of time. The juice ain't worth the squeeze and even FAANG-level comp and work conditions aren't what they used to be (and those were basically unique to the US - in Europe they were never particularly life-changing).

Software dev as a tool in your toolbox to fix business problems is a superpower and will actually earn you decent money.

(also, if you use software on your own then it doesn't matter how good you are or whether you conform to any given day's "best practices". Your client pays to get their problem solved, they don't care if it's solved by duct-tape and hot glue)

badpun2• 11 months ago

If salaried software dev work is not worth it, what other salaried career is?

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

One when your comp and/or bonuses better capture the value you create.

Just an example: sales roles generally have commission-based compensation that scales with the amount of effort you put in and actually rewards high-performers.

In comparison, the "reward" for effort in a salaried SWE job is more work and to get your token 5% raise early if you're really lucky. And that's after you go through the insane recruitment & interviewing processes.

The SWE salary income might sound high at first glance when you're young and fresh but tops out quickly (and of course that top end has been significantly eroded by inflation), much lower than other roles.

JustExAWS5• 11 months ago

The average software dev working in a tier 2 city in the US with 5-7 years of experience is making twice the median household wage in the US and is probably making twice the local median wage.

When you move over to BigTech, you come out of school making over twice the median household wage and can easily make well over a quarter million a year in total comp within 3-5 years.

I get it. I have been working in cloud consulting for a little over 5 years now with three of those working (full time) at BigTech. Now I’m a staff architect at a 3rd party consulting company working very closely with sales as part of my job.

But to say that you can’t make money as a software dev in the US is not supported by facts.

And then let’s also not glamorize independent consultants. Most don’t make the eye popping salaries and working for a consulting company, money appears in my account whether I have a project or not on vacation or sick. I have a whole sales organization, legal, accounting, a large collection of people that the resourcing department that can pull in for larger projects to work under me etc behind me even though I’m the tip of spear.

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

Working in BigTech and/or some high paying consulting company puts you in the top 10-20% and may still be worth it.

But for the other bottom 80-90% outside of those industries SWE is essentially the modern version of an assembly line worker with way more stress, responsibilities and bullshit.

It’s unlikely our aspiring dev here is going to land a high-paying position right away. They’re gonna have to grind it out at one of those lower-paying companies first and build up their experience, and maybe after 5-7 years actually join one of those higher-paying jobs.

This assumes of course that those jobs still exist in that time and the pay situation hasn’t gotten worse. Turns out the world has built a very high tolerance for shitty, low-quality software, and both AI and outsourced workers can churn it out much cheaper than our upcoming dev can.

If the author here is considering investing 10 years of their life into a new career, I’d rather have them do so in something that has higher earning potential and resistance to outsourcing.

codegeek4• 11 months ago

"even FAANG-level comp"

I am too dumb to get a FAANG job but it boggles my mind when people downplay the salary you make at FAANGs. It is more than life changing for anyone especially compared to rest of the options in software world. Am I taking crazy pills here ?

techcode3• 11 months ago

"too dumb to get a FAANG job"?

As a diagnosed ADHD person myself - I think you should spend time to get that ADHD diagnosis Even without meds, stuff like CBT helps.

Anyway - not sure if they are downplaying FAANG salary, or its more about the ROI (long hours, stress ...etc)?

I'm basically at European equivalent of FAANG, and I don't see myself doing US version even if it's double the money.

Nextgrid8• 11 months ago

Is it life-changing if those jobs require you (or will soon require) to be in a high-cost of living area and that your landlord will end up pocketing a large chunk of your salary (or enjoy your long commute every day).

Not to mention a FAANG job isn't for everyone, and it's not really a matter of dumbness. You need to like dealing with the problems they usually deal with (heavy focus on distributed systems - ie. "just use Postgres" doesn't work at that scale), politics, working with other people who just optimized their interview process rather than the actual job, and so on. It has its downsides, for which the salary and perks needs to make up for.

The world is increasingly converging into a state where your absolute salary won't matter, as any increase will just make your landlord and/or the taxman richer, FAANG or not.

techcode3• 11 months ago

Waste of time you say? Were never life changing?

I'm curious to hear what's your definition of "life changing"?

Salaried tech compensation in Europe grew quite a lot over the last 10+ years. Still behind US, but no longer by as much as before.

Back in 2005, 2010, and even 2015 - companies were benchmarking salaries locally (and even down to that specific country). With FAANG opening up shops in EU, all other bigger tech companies started to benchmark compensation somewhat globally.

I know plenty of European software engineers that got a house with 30 years mortgage, and (with salary, RSUs and bonuses) paid it off in <10 years.

Granted, cost of real estate is now 3x compared to 10-15 years ago (other costs are also bigger, but not 3x). From what I've seen it's the same just about anywhere in Europe.

So if you just got a mortgage now, it will take longer.

But still - there's usually enough salary left (even after spending on traveling with 25+ vacation days) to put loads of money into rainy day funds, expensive hobbies, as well as investments/FIRE.

Most other sectors are not really close.

throw-away-swe• 11 months ago

Nope, Im 42 myself, FAANG, and the software industry sucks. I've been doing it all my life, and its never been worse.

I dream of never using one of these cursed dystopia machines again.

Run away from computers

foobarbaz33• 11 months ago

It's not literally the age that's the issue, it's just a correlation. Some employers want people they can squeeze more easily and get the most juice out of.

Younger people are more likely to accept orders without push back. Accept lower pay. Work 60+ hr/week for crunch time, etc.

Depends on the employer of course. Google employs an 80+ year old Ken Thompson.

duxup• 11 months ago

I worked in tech but not coding. After age 40 I decided to change careers, I took a bootcamp and moved into coding.

Been happy ever since working / coding away.

I would keep in mind that a lot of software dev talk on the internet revolves around FAANG, and start ups. They get the most lip service but they're not the majority of the work / companies.

_DeadFred_• 11 months ago

If you are content with an apartment (with roommates to start), used vehicles, packing lunch, and basic polo shirts/Ross dress shirts and being dev adjacent (QA, some sort of support role) you might meet those goals. If you want to live like a normal middle class adult and have interesting dev work it's going to be tough. I you can build off your current work/connections it could be different.

Is 42 too old

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