Lyon Drops Microsoft to Boost Digital Sovereignty

https://digitrendz.blog/newswire/business/19813/lyon-drops-microsoft-office-to-boost-digital-sovereignty/

172 77 1 year ago

sylware7• 1 year ago

Don't forget, "open source" is not enough: we need _lean_ open source and I do include the SDK (then programing language).

That for software/protocol/file formats (and hardware programing interfaces...).

It is much easier to say than done, and when you read that, often it is to apply pressure on microsoft pricing only without a real intent to start to "digitally assume themselves".

Keep in mind: there is ZERO, Z-E-R-O, economic competition with big tech as they are backed by funds with thousands of billions of $ and they their billions of $ too. They will spend anybody out of business (~usually 5-10 years, even longer), and "buy" anybody (then throw them away once lock-in is assured).

For instance: libreoffice is horrible (c++ grotesque syntax complexity is the culprit), PDF file format is insane (I cannot event download the specs with noscript/basic (x)html browsers!). Better write simple utf8 text files along with some PNG images mkv(AV1/OPUS) video if needed.

Basically, you need to generate programmatically the PDF files of the administration since there are no "reasonable" (as far as I know) open source software to do so (often c++, then excluded de-facto).

sodimel2• 1 year ago

We generate pdf files using weasyprint (convert html+css into cool pdf files), I think tools like this are very valuable and practical for building higher-level pdf-generators tools.

sylware7• 1 year ago

Yep, in-house PDF generators should be some sort of good middle ground, but I dunno if this 'weasyprint' is open source, is _lean_ open source? (no c++, java, etc).

When dealing with an ultra-complex file format which cannot be dodged, usually a good way to deal with it is to only use a very simple but coherent subset and enforce this usage with validation tools.

For instance, the web, noscript/basic (x)html (or you are jailed in the 2.5 web engines of the whatng cartel).

With PDF, I dunno much of the format (since I did not manage to download easily the specs), but when I have to print some text, I have a very small PDF generator for that (written ~25 years ago, so no utf-8 for me).

But what's important: such attempt must be sided with re-assessing the pertinence of the usage of the information systems, and yes, it will annoying and much less comfy and that MUST be acknowledged before even trying.

And big tech is not the only one trying hard to do vendor and developer lock-in.

vasco• 1 year ago

IBM has some cool AI tools for PDFs that I used for some side project toys: https://github.com/docling-project/docling

tonyedgecombe2• 1 year ago

I agree with you that the PDF format is insane (I have had my head buried in the spec for the last month) but it has won in the marketplace. It's unlikely anything can supersede it now.

Microsoft had a technically strong alternative but it was far too late.

sylware7• 1 year ago

dude... 'it has won in the market' : with those words, you have already lost to big tech...

michalf6• 1 year ago

What was that Microsoft alternative called?

eska• 1 year ago

FWIW I distribute HTML with embedded images instead of PDF usually.

jddj• 1 year ago

It doesn't seem like it, but can someone shed any light on whether La Suite Numerique (https://lasuite.numerique.gouv.fr/en) and the Territoire Numérique Ouvert are related?

eigenspace2• 1 year ago

Almost certainly related. Im sure Lyon won't just use those tools, but im sure they'll also be front of the queue for consideration.

PoignardAzur• 1 year ago

I'm not sure either, but those seem like completely parallel initiatives, with overlapping but not quite identical feature sets.

williamdclt• 1 year ago

googling a bit (as a french speaker with no specific knowledge about these): doesn't seem like it

Disposal84332• 1 year ago

I don't think so. "Territoire Numérique Ouvert" seems to be a private project that would give tools to the "collectivités territoriales" (i.e. mayors and local people).

La Suite Numerique is a bunch of tools for a more global population. It's mostly for government workers I guess but it looks like anyone can use it. The most famous tool is Tchap (see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)>) which is used by cops in France as a secure messaging platform.

cyberkar• 1 year ago

Well open-source projects are free. Why pay for editing Software while you can get it for free in 2025 ??

Disposal84332• 1 year ago

You're very very wrong nowadays, see https://code.gouv.fr/fr/ and https://www.data.gouv.fr/fr/datasets/socle-interministeriel-....

kergonath2• 1 year ago

Thank you. Baseless cynicism gets tiring. Not that governments are perfect, but overall it works better than people credit them for.

The French government has been investing in open source for quite a long time now, just not on sexy and high-visibility projects.

amelius• 1 year ago

It would be fair if we'd see an increase in government funding of open source projects.

Or at least the government could pay for security audits.

tormeh2• 1 year ago

Governments don't generally get Bob from accounting to install it on a spare laptop they have lying around. There's a contractor involved that will also be tasked with fixing bugs and other improvements and change requests. As long as the software is GPL improvements will flow back upstream somehow.

Muromec• 1 year ago

Sometimes the contractor is a different department of the same government or a state enterprise. The point is -- somebody has to own the risk

kergonath2• 1 year ago

I think you are not familiar with how governments work. They are not going to rely on a random git repo, they are going to have contractors to ensure a basic level of support and bug fixing. And some contractors to ensure development and availability of tooling. And deployment and integration. They are also going to test, audit and validate updates, not just pull from remote.

Also, in some cases there are research agencies doing some work as well (sometimes they have been doing it for a long time on not-so-sexy but vital projects like Inria and the open source tax code in France).

Hilift• 1 year ago

The product is a vehicle. Governments are looking for an assurance. That comes from the reputation of the system integrators/contractors.

That said, Birmingham UK turned a £38 million Oracle Financials project into a £90 million failure after including re-implementation costs. That kind of stuff probably isn't replaceable, simply because they spent all the money.

dahcryn• 1 year ago

this scares me.

The last thing we need is cheap consulting messing with open source projects. I don't want TCS and Accenture developing libreoffice or stuff like that and turn it into shit

JimDabell3• 1 year ago

They do. Take a look at things like NLNet, which is largely EU-funded:

https://nlnet.nl

throwaway729991• 1 year ago

NLNet funding has been cut:

https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/17/foss_funding_vanishes...

tormeh2• 1 year ago

Schleswig-Holstein and Thuringia are switching to OpenTalk for teleconference. It's really wild to see things actually happen - not just research grants and talking.

eigenspace2• 1 year ago

It's *almost* like those research grants and talking laid some groundwork ;)

notarobot123• 1 year ago

sure, but international politics was probably a little more than the straw that broke the camel's back.

hyperman1• 1 year ago

I noticed a similar thing as an European with COVID. Noise from a new disease came from China, so everybody is a bit scared and does nothing. Then Italy got the full blast of it, overloaded hospitals and all. This somehow made it real. People in our ingroup were suffering. At that point, governements got actively involved.

The Microsoft vs ICC situation seems similar. IT independence is now taken serious at governemental organisations. Our ingroup got a problem.

netsharc• 1 year ago

I wonder if it's because of the ICC, or in general because suddenly US cloud providers ended up in the same category of Chinese cloud providers: under the regime of a ruler and subservient "parliament" who can make a new rule as they wish...

sigmoid103• 1 year ago

Munich switched to Linux in 2012. But they switched back to Microsoft in 2020 because they never could get it to work completely. At least not to the level of comfort in the old system. Open source has its advantages, but MS dominates the business world because of its tech support that is truly second to none on that scale. If Europe wants independence, they need to support local businesses and not just technology.

imjonse• 1 year ago

Tech support is clearly very important but I have a hard time believing there wasn't a great amount of lobbying involved as well.

kirushik• 1 year ago

Well, Minich's return to MS tech oddly coincides with MS Germany moving their HQ there (and the ruling party change in the city); it's of course hard to explicitly call backroom deals on this (even though ex-mayor seems to be doing exactly that: https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgaben/2019/10/interview-2/), but it might be that the decision wasn't fully technical.

JimDabell3• 1 year ago

I’m not sure “they could never get [Linux] to work completely” is a fair summary of what happened.

There’s a Hacker News thread here that goes into more detail:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21497372

eeZah7Ux• 1 year ago

The reason is bribery.

lionkor• 1 year ago

Finally, the year of the Linux desktop!

buyucu3• 1 year ago

I said this before, but will say it again: Trump is pure evil, but he is having positive (unintended) consequences. One of them will be is the migration he is triggering away from Big Tech.

madaxe_again• 1 year ago

Everyone is either pure good or pure evil now, huh? Red team or blue team, compromise is anathema, the centre a desert.

FWIW I’m no fan of Trump, but I’m even less of a fan of this bipolar tribalism.

Kuinox• 1 year ago

You are for or against fascism. The bipolar tribalism is in the viewpoint, there are tons of political groups out there that are not fascist, saying that Trump is pure evil doesn't exclude being open to multiple alternative and having various aligments with thoses.

justinrubek• 1 year ago

Nope, nobody claimed that everyone is pure good or pure evil. The claim was just about Trump.

rb666• 1 year ago

There's been plenty Republican presidents who did evil things and mixed it up with acceptable or even positive change. Trump is the first one who's actually an evil fascist at heart. That's the difference.

buyucu3• 1 year ago

I'm not an American and could not care about your petty rat races.

TiredOfLife• 1 year ago

Away from AMERICAN big tech

GTP2• 1 year ago

Well, I'm a FOSS supporter but, given the current situation, I would be happy if we had European big tech.

xeonmc• 1 year ago

Trump is teaching the world a lesson that they will remember in their bones.

esbranson• 1 year ago

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Europe is likely to get in as many civil society and foreign aid funding cuts as they can while Trump is in office. It's Trump all the way down.

nxobject• 1 year ago

Do they need an intranet wiki/web page solution to replace Sharepoint as well?

hermanzegerman• 1 year ago

I don't know. But if they do, they would probably go with the french XWiki. It is also already part of the german OpenDesk Project

guappa3• 1 year ago

I think even a .txt file over a shared directory would work better than sharepoint.

sublimefire2• 1 year ago

I found it hard to even bid to solve problems for councils locally. The requirements are mental sometimes, there is a reason the company would focus on consumers rather than gov sales. This in turn makes it easy for the large corps to win over contracts. There needs to be more willingness to engage locally with the engineers to help them setup and run OSS systems. With the new generation this could become true.

v5v32• 1 year ago

Article says they are switching to OnlyOffice.

It looks and feels very similar to ms office (So easier to adopt than libre)

https://www.onlyoffice.com/document-editor.aspx?docs=downloa...

https://www.onlyoffice.com/spreadsheet-editor.aspx?docs=down...

(Edited to remove statement saying paid product, as it's free with enterprise offerings as below)

GTP2• 1 year ago

You can actually use it for free, I don't know if that's just for private use, or if it's something like Nextcloud that you can self-host for free.

v5v32• 1 year ago

Thanks, found the GitHub for it

https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/

bni• 1 year ago

I thought at first it was a typo of OpenOffice. Turns out that is not the case.

I think OnlyOffice focusing on web based collaboration only is on point. It is what organizations want today and what users expect.

glitchc• 1 year ago

What's the open-source equivalent of a collaborative platform like Sharepoint? Without that, it's going to be tough to migrate most organizations.

Lyon Drops Microsoft to Boost Digital Sovereignty

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