Inmates in ElSalvador tortured/strangled-hellish conditions in Bukele's prisons (2023)

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-29/inmates-in-el-salvador-tortured-and-strangled-a-report-denounces-hellish-conditions-in-bukeles-prisons.html

by nobody9999 • 1 year ago

100 45 1 year ago

english.elpais.com

nobody99993• 1 year ago

N.B: From 2023. Title was already too long to add the date.

Original title:

Inmates in El Salvador tortured and strangled: A report denounces hellish conditions in Bukele’s prisons

devrandoom• 1 year ago

Handy that's outside US and not their responsibility. Remember that Auschwitz was also outside Germany.

freen• 1 year ago

The cruelty is the point.

OutOfHere• 1 year ago

It is a concentration camp, not a prison.

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

From 2021 to 2024, the homicide rate in El Salvador decreased by 10 times [1]. Sure, torture is terrible in El Salvador's prison, as it is in Guantánamo's "prison", but public safety is the number one priority for any government, without safety any other achievement for a country is impossible.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador

ForHackernews2• 1 year ago

This is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

lostmsu3• 1 year ago

How would you compare torture to civil war AKA mass murder?

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

This is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Are you talking about Guantanamo or El Salvador? Because in El Salvador civilians had neither Liberty (not wander the street without fear) nor Safety (been shot).

Also i don't know why El Salvador should use the US or Franklin as a template.

However the US still has the Patriot Act, attacked Iraq and gained no Liberty nor Safety out of it.

x0x0• 1 year ago

Pre-Bukele, El Salvador had a breakdown in civil society. Focusing just on homicide, it peaked at 106.3 homicides per 100k in 2015. For context, the "crime wave" America experienced in the 90s peaked at 9.82.

The April 24-27 2020 murder spree by gangs killed 77 people in a country of 6.3 million. Again, scaled to America's population, that's killing 4.1k people.

chrisnight• 1 year ago

Can you explain this quote, because it feels to me like it’s the exact opposite of what standard government practice would dictate?

Everyone in a country with government gives up part of their natural liberties in order to form said government and create a civilized (safer) society. That’s the philosophy of government.

Perhaps there is something to be argued here about “essential” liberty, or “little temporary” safety, but the core idea seems nonsensical, especially in the context of a person not deserving essential properties of life because of a bad choice.

mvdtnz• 1 year ago

El Salvador... is not America.

exceptione• 1 year ago

  > Sure, torture is terrible

This is where your program corrupts the stack.

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

Yep, a Government should never do what Criminals/Terrorist do, for example the death sentence, let prisoner being raped by others(unofficial-torture), official-torture in Guantanamo or targeted killings, the US that is.

aaomidi• 1 year ago

Arresting every man in the country would plummet public safety issues in the US.

I propose we do this.

mlsu• 1 year ago

Why would you trust these statistics?

I am very skeptical. The state said that they have solved the gang problem by putting “gangsters” in prisons like this (frequently, without due process as we have seen).

I think it’s far more likely that the state in El Salvador is structured like a gang, and the level of violence is the same as it ever was.

lawn2• 1 year ago

Sounds exactly like the lies Russia presents.

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

Why would you trust these statistics?

Because i would think the Associated press makes a more or less professional job:

https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...

And the approval rating:

~91%

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264586/approval-salvado...

But maybe you have better data to counter that?

lesuorac• 1 year ago

As arrests go up, crime should go down; whose left to commit crimes?

It doesn't mean everybody being arrested is guilty but if you have a say 20% accurate arrest rate and you run it over the entire population you're going to remove a large amount of criminals. Not a great way to live in general, but would lower crime outside of a jail.

nextaccountic• 1 year ago

You know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars to imprison some hundred persons there without due process, right? And is looking into expanding this right now:

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trump-wants-deport-so...

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

You know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars

Billions would be better for El Salvador. But that's a "you" problem, I'm not you.

ImJamal• 1 year ago

There is a reason he is the most popular politician. He has over a 90% approval rating. People don't care about the violation of rights of gang members when the alternative is having their family murdered and raped.

tastyface• 1 year ago

Who the fuck knows how popular an authoritarian politician actually is?

While polling consistently shows that Bukele is quite popular in El Salvador, surveys also show a steady increase in fear of public criticism of the government — to degrees that sometimes match the president’s approval rating. 'There’s a sector of the population that feels better, because it’s true that we perceive more security, we’re no longer afraid of the gangs. Now we’re afraid of the regime,' says Ramirez. 'We see soldiers everywhere, police everywhere, patrol cars, and they’re arresting people.'"

lawn2• 1 year ago

Putin also boasts a very high approval rating.

AIPedant2• 1 year ago

This is lying with data, giving Bukele credit for sociological factors that predate his administration:

  Year  Rate   Total
  2015  106.3  6,656
  2016  84.1   5,269
  2017  83.0   3,962
  2018  53.1   3,346
  2019  38.0   2,398 [Bukele’s inauguration]
  2020  21.2   1,341
  2021  18.1   1,147
  2022  7.8    495 [start of gang crackdown]
  2023  2.4    154
  2024  1.9    114

Genuinely infuriating that you crow about the “10x” drop of 1100->150 homicides, rooting for mass incarceration and excusing torture, when homicides were plummeting drastically for nearly a decade before the crackdown. He had nothing to do with the 6,600->3,300 drop, but I guess according to your math that’s merely halving.

BSDobelix9• 1 year ago

2021 18.1 1,147 2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown] 2023 2.4 154 2024 1.9 114

18.1 to 1.9 ...that is a 10x drop.

snapplebobapple• 1 year ago

I have to respectfully disagree. My behaviour and precautions are the same at 6k or 3k homicides a year because both are extremely terrible. Its also way easier to drop that large number because there will be glaringly obvious things to do that will have big effects. That last drop from 18 to 2 will be far harder, this is pretty much universally true for all changes like this. Its also the biggest life improvement for people there. at 18 you still need decent precautions. At 2 you dont really

mmcwilliams• 1 year ago

This could also be due to the agreements Bukele reached with the MS-13 gang in 2020 [0]. Keep in mind this story came out over 4 years before the prison's existence was politicized in the US.

[0] https://elfaro.net/en/202009/el_salvador/24785/Bukele-Has-Be...

mcv• 1 year ago

I don't think anyone is complaining about putting those gang members in prison. The problem is the torture, not the imprisonment. Torture is simply not acceptable, and creating a society where such sadism is considered acceptable, is not going to give you a peaceful society in the long run.

Inmates in ElSalvador tortured/strangled-hellish conditions in Bukele's prisons (2023)

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