Amazon Career Choice Program

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200979350&view-type=stand-alone

by jergason • 14 years ago

158 91 14 years ago

davewicket• 14 years ago

again?

For a company who has repeatedly come under fire for hellish work conditions in their warehouses, a tuition reimbursement program seems like a rather pathetic PR nod. What hourly employee of theirs is going to have the time and 3 year commitment to earn this reward? Never mind the fact that most of their employees are temps from external agencies.

WalterSear• 14 years ago

And all for a measily $1900.

ybother• 14 years ago

"repeatedly"? Source? I've worked in Amazon warehouses and they are far and above any other workhouse job in terms of both safety, pay and workload required. Granted, I only worked at 2 different Amazon warehouses so my sample small is probably smaller than yours.

rickmb• 14 years ago

It all depends on what your standards are. The working conditions at Amazon warehouses as reported repeatedly by the press would be completely illegal in most Western countries outside the US.

patdennis• 14 years ago

Key information that's missing from the title: up to a maximum of $2,000 per year

Foy3• 14 years ago

I got through the bulk of the page thinking, "Hey, this isn't so bad". But when I got to the $2,000 maximum part I had to stop and re-read it...

What's vocational tuition like in the States? Is $2,000/year for 4 years actually going to cover most, or any of it?

baddox2• 14 years ago

Four years ago I went to a community college in the rural Midwest, and $2,000 a year would probably just barely cover tuition and books. And that was by far the cheapest school I have ever encountered.

quaunaut• 14 years ago

It'll cover community colleges just fine. Universities is where the issue arises.

Edit: The person above me said they went to a Community College in the midwest, but I have no idea how it cost them so much. I was attending in Fresno, California, and a full semester wouldn't even get close to 1k.

jvc26• 14 years ago

$2k won't buy anything like 95% of tuition in the US will it?

res0nat0r• 14 years ago

This program is for vocational schools only.

illinx• 14 years ago

I got the impression it was 95% tuition plus books/assorted costs up to $2000 per year.

ohashi• 14 years ago

That was my impression as well. It's what made sense. However, that comma makes it very unclear technically.

CGamesPlay• 14 years ago

This is plenty to get through community college and get a vocational certificate. A community college in Kansas runs $71 per credit hour, and you need 60 to get a 2-year AA degree. That's just over $2000/yr for the program.

http://www.kckcc.edu/academics/classSchedules/spring/tuition...

stephengillie• 14 years ago

In Amazon's home state of WAshington, 1 year of tuition costs:

  Institution	Comm. Coll[1]	% of $2000	University[2]	% of $2000
  Resident	$4,000		50%		$10,347		19.3%
  Non-Resident	$9,235		21.7%		$27,831		7.2%

[1]http://www.sbctc.edu/college/f_tuition.aspx

[2]http://admit.washington.edu/Paying/Cost

bethling• 14 years ago

If you're looking at it full time, then yes, but my partner just finished her part time AA in WA, and the peak we had for tuition/fees/books in any one year (she did it in a little over 3 years) was $2100 (the link you had shows the maximum that a community college can charge for 3 15 credit terms, not all charge that). If we had spread it out over 4 years, $2000 would have easily covered it all.

Not to say that this is an people will be lining up to get a job at an Amazon warehouse for, but it is something that can help some employees get a little ahead.

prostoalex• 14 years ago

This includes colleges with football teams and Olympic swimming pools. As others have noted, education credits in WA tend to be cheap when it's just the education.

Not that it matters for home state advantage - their warehouse workers are spread across the country, not in the most north-western point of the continental US.

glesica• 14 years ago

I had the same thought, but I hopped over to the web site of the local community college and did some arithmetic. It turns out that $2,000 per year will easily cover four courses, two per semester, which is a decent part-time load. Cost works out to about $1,250 per year, plus a textbook rental fee of maybe $300 or so, depending on course selection.

kaonashi• 14 years ago

This reeks of empty PR gesture.

tarice• 14 years ago

Judging from this news article[1], it seems like there aren't many warehouse workers that 1) work there full-time, 2) have worked for 3 years, and 3) have the free time to pursue a degree.

Then again, the money may be targeted towards warehouse managers, who Amazon could see as potential higher-ups in the main organization if they had formal training.

[1] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...

lizthegrey• 14 years ago

Duplicate article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4279905), with misleading title this time. This does not apply to the vast majority of warehouse employees. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4280530

jellicle• 14 years ago

Okay, that's peachy. Here's the flipside:

--most people working in Amazon warehouses are employed by temporary staffing firms, not Amazon

--most people working in Amazon warehouses don't come anywhere near 3 years of tenure before quitting or being fired

--reimbursement is limited to $2,000/year for four years, while $5,000/year is pretty much the minimum direct cost to take such programs

--the program is limited to full-time workers, so only those who can take classes while working full-time and mandatory-or-you-get-fired overtime can partake

The number of warehouse workers eligible for this is nearly zero. Might even be precisely zero.

munin2• 14 years ago

don't they work 10-12 hour shifts? sometimes more? for 6 days a week?

also aren't the warehouses generally in areas of the country that don't really have schools?

yeah, I don't think they're going to be paying much out on this program ...

brianbreslin• 14 years ago

almost all of these communities have community colleges or junior colleges nearby (less than an hour away)

NoPiece2• 14 years ago

There are 1,721 2 year colleges in the US (as of 2011), pretty good chance there is one nearby wherever you are. Also, the whole purpose of putting warehouses around the country is to be closer to people. So they are turning up in suburban areas of large cities (e.g. Phoenix, Nashville, Dallas). These are places that will have access to schools.

wyclif• 14 years ago

No, why would you think that? The warehouses have to be not only where people are, but close to shipping and mail hubs. That means near infrastructure, which means there are plenty of universities and colleges nearby.

One of Amazon's warehouses cough "fulfillment centers" cough is in New Castle, Delaware-- not far from the University of Delaware, a top US engineering school.

jeremyarussell• 14 years ago

I suppose it's better than nothing, the full time thing is the kicker, I'd say a year and part time should suffice to weed out people that are just getting hired for college money. Plus, if they quit before the schooling is up they wouldn't keep getting tuition.

On a side note, does anyone know of other workplaces that offer a tuition payment program? --- A google search later and I actually find this site http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/746434/

I does look like Amazon isn't really doing that much of an amazing thing here though.

munin2• 14 years ago

yes. almost every employer offers some degree of tuition reimbursement because, as far as I understand, they can get a tax deduction for the money they pay to their employees under such a program. most places will offer around $5000 a year, as the federal cap (the last time I looked) for reimbursement was $5250.

barik2• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, most companies don't seem to publish it, but you can find out through HR. I worked at a company (now Lonza), and they had 100% tuition reimbursement with no caps. I did my entire Master's degree at their expense (ECE), and I am familiar with one full-time warehouse employee who started moving boxes and ended up leaving after he had enough education to become an actuary! Of course, your reimbursement was contingent on maintaining at least a B in each course, which I think is completely fair.

Yet, for some reason, this company has never made it in the news for its tuition programs, but Amazon offers basically nothing in comparison and somehow they are worth mentioning.

ismarc2• 14 years ago

While I wasn't getting reimbursement, I was working roughly 60 hours a week on the assembly floor at Dell while taking a full load of classes (12 credit hours). Before any financial aid or assistance, tuition and books at the community college I was going to was around 1800 a semester. After financial aid, it was around 800. This is a great program for those who cannot live on financial aid alone (need to work for whatever reasons) and have the drive to better themselves. I didn't get a degree, but not because I was working so much.

wheelerwj2• 14 years ago

or maybe it was because you were working too much? You shouldn't sell yourself short or overlook the affects of overwork on a persons ability to deal with outside forces.

Additionally, i think ALL reimbursement programs are great. But as a comparison, this one is kind of shit. 2k a year max helps with books. That's about it. It is hardly an "Amazon Sends its workforce to school" Program. There is a regional gas station/mini mart here in WA state that offers a better program and you only have to work 35 hours a week.

laluser2• 14 years ago

First of all, you are talking out of your ass. You make many claims, but provide no sources.

Amazon has many thousands of warehouse associates. Most of the temporary workers, however come in during the holidays - that's no surprise.

Amazon is experiencing tons of growth right now, the last thing they want to do is keep having to rehire associate workers. If you are good, there is no reason why they should fire you.

A reimbursement of $2,000/ year may not seem like much, but it goes a long way if you are in a state school or in community college. A lot of the associate workers are making somewhere around $12-$14/hour, so this ends up helping them a lot more than you realize.

srean• 14 years ago

earl who replied to you seems to have been hell-banned. So I am copying his comment because I think it adds valuable data points.

   Amazon is experiencing tons of growth right now, the last thing they want to 
   do is keep having to rehire associate workers. If you are good, there is no 
   reason why they should fire you.

Kindly educate yourself before writing [1]. Because despite your hypotheticals, it's well documented that amazon is doing precisely that: hiring tons of workers, firing them very quickly, and intimidating injured ones into signing papers saying it wasn't from the job. Amazon even stage ambulances outside their unconditioned warehouses in order to be prepared when employees get sick and have to be taken to hospital because of heat.

From the article:

   Temporary employees interviewed said few people in their working groups 
   actually made it to a permanent Amazon position. Instead, they said they 
   were pushed harder and harder to work faster and faster until they were 
   terminated, they quit or they got injured. Those interviewed say turnover at 
   the warehouse is high and many hires don't last more than a few months.

This whole program is a bullshit ruse to deflect criticism. Because guess what: the first thing a student needs is a reliable schedule. Mandatory overtime kills taking classes, because your butt often needs to be in the seat at a fixed time, particularly for tests.

[1] http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-complain....

[2] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f....

jberryman• 14 years ago

Relevant, and good read: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...

ttran4• 14 years ago

--Amazon has more than 15,000 full-time employees at 69 different warehouses (fulfillment centers) in the United States and of course the program is limited to full-time employees. What industry or job have you ever seen a employee working 20/hrs work week getting benefits?

Where are you getting your information from?

mudetroit• 14 years ago

It has been a few years since I worked there, but I am pretty sure the threshold for qualifying for benefits at Starbucks was actually 20hrs/wk. Their basic theory was that training was one of the most expensive things they had to do, so giving people an incentive to stay for a while was a net benefit.

allritenow3• 14 years ago

I left Amazon just over a year ago, but have just over two years as a manager across three of their large fulfillment centers. I can offer some perspective: -- Yes, the ratio of temp associates to "blue badge" Amazon associates can be 50/50 at best during off-peak (though trending worse as Amazon expands) and during peak season temps will be 80% of the workforce. And yes, temps get absolutely nothing from Amazon as far as benefits. This is in stark contrast to a company they own - Zappos.

-- Very few tier 1 associates made it three years. Very, very few. On my last shift of about 50 associates, I can only think of about 5, and this was one of the older fulfillment centers.

-- Maybe it has changed, but there was no option to work part-time. Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak. I had plenty of associates that took college classes during the day (I managed on nights). They did it, but were really dragging ass at night. They got maybe two or three hours of sleep a day. Many just couldn't make their productivity goals and would eventually quit before being fired.

This initiative is what I would call a good start, and better than nothing. But as some have mentioned, the ability to move to a part-time schedule would be nice. As would a higher reimbursement amount. But maybe that will come in the future.

pnathan2• 14 years ago

"Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak" That's pretty rough. What's the benefit to Amazon of doing 10-hour shifts instead of, say, 8?

donnfelker• 14 years ago

While some may argue this is not much in regards to tuition, this can get you VERY far in a community college. See this tuition graph here: http://www.maricopa.edu/about/?tuition

I went to Maricopa community colleges and I had better instruction there than I had at the big schools. The best teachers I had were at community college.

So while some argue its not much, its almost enough to cover your tuition for a year at a community college.

If someone has the drive, they'll go do it and take advantage of the program.

xyzzyb2• 14 years ago

I absolutely agree. I attended College of the Albemarle for two years before transferring into UNC-Chapel Hill.

The teaching quality at COA was astoundingly much higher at COA than at UNC.

At UNC most of my classes, even at the higher level, were taught by graduate students who had clearly received little to no instruction on how to effectively teach. They were there to learn and research, not to teach.

At COA my classes were taught by professors with a graduate degree in the field (usually a PhD) who were dedicated to the art of teaching. They were there to teach, not to research.

Of course higher education should be dedicated to research and expanding our knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are good at sharing the basics.

elangoc• 14 years ago

Hmm, never heard of College of Albermarle. I don't disbelieve you -- most survey courses get taught in the 50-300 person seater rooms at UNC-CH. I just don't recall grad students teaching most of my courses, even the survey courses, whether they were in CS or Math (my majors) or the graduation requirements from social sciences, philosophy, etc. I had only one course taught by a grad student -- graphics. Which was your major at UNC-CH?

jseliger• 14 years ago

I'm a grad student at the University of Arizona, and many of my students say they prefer math / science classes from community colleges precisely because so little real teaching happens in lower division classes at the U of A.

ehao• 14 years ago

Again? This feels like Amazon PR is spamming HN...

mangler• 14 years ago

In all fairness, allowing people who are unhappy, in a first warehouse job, or in skilled occupations to train themselves out of their unhappiness is a very novel and extremely favourable idea.

This is like saying, it's not you, here's a chance, take your time, we'll help you and then move on when you are ready. I wish every company did that... It is way better than laying you off and even more superior to keeping you in a job you resent and do just because you need to pay the bills...

icco• 14 years ago

Question: would Amazon hire anyone with just an associates degree?

eli• 14 years ago

No doubt this is partly in response to articles like this: http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazo... which describe surprisingly poor working conditions in an Amazon warehouse in rural PA.

"During summer heat waves, Amazon arranged to have paramedics parked in ambulances outside, ready to treat any workers who dehydrated or suffered other forms of heat stress. Those who couldn't quickly cool off and return to work were sent home or taken out in stretchers and wheelchairs and transported to area hospitals. And new applicants were ready to begin work at any time."

whit537• 14 years ago

"[...] whether that's at Amazon or in another industry."

Because, you know, Amazon is the only player in its industry. Oh wait ...

droithomme• 14 years ago

This program only covers inexpensive two year community college degrees, and only for a small number of subjects.

The subject limitation I can understand, it's not unreasonable for the employer to lock out degrees that they feel might not directly benefit the company.

But the two year degree restriction, which locks out all serious degrees and universities, has no justification other than being incredibly cheap on reimbursements. It would be better to have nothing at all since community college tuition isn't that expensive to begin with. If I was there I'd interpret this limitation as more of an insult than anything, and I have no doubt that many there will see it the same way once they look into the details.

HeyLaughingBoy4• 14 years ago

Explain how it could possibly be better to have no program at all?

Klinky2• 14 years ago

By creating a program such as this it deflects attention from the working conditions of Amazon's employees while actually doing very little to benefit them.

hosh• 14 years ago

Sounds like Amazon is telegraphing its intentions for increasing automation in warehouses, a la Zappos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdd6sQ8Cbe0

lsc• 14 years ago

"Unlike traditional tuition reimbursement programs, we exclusively fund education only in areas that are well-paying and in high demand according to sources like the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, and we fund those areas regardless of whether those skills are relevant to a career at Amazon. In addition, the Amazon Career Choice Program will pay tuition and fees in advance rather than reimbursement after the completion of the course."

That is /really interesting/ I mean, why? from an employer's perspective, it seems like you'd keep your low-skilled employees longer if you helped them pursue their dream of, you know, something unemployable. (I mean, assuming they are going to learn something that doesn't help amazon, amazon keeps people longer if they learn something that isn't in demand.)

rabidsnail• 14 years ago

This, combined with the recent Kiva Systems acquisition, makes me suspect a layoff is on the horizon.

orbitingpluto• 14 years ago

I just took a peak on glassdoor.com.

Average salary for a "Amazon.com Warehouse Associate Salary": $24,756

With 10 hour days (as mentioned in the comments) that works out to be... disgusting.

keeptrying• 14 years ago

A friend of mine commented that this is just a way to minimize the negative impact for when Amazon substitutes employees with Kiva robots.

AYBABTME• 14 years ago

I find it's kinda cheap. 2000$ per year... looks more like recruitment marketing without too much commitment, than an actual initiative for the well-beings of the employees.

I like to think "do things right, or don't do them". In that case, I'd prefer if Amazon would go all the way and give maybe, 5..8k$, or give nothing at all.

2k$ a year, that's really not much. I like the initiative, I was reading it and thinking "Hum, this is interesting and nice" until I got to the "huh what?" of the 2k$ line.

Amazon Career Choice Program

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