Track your devices via Apple FindMy network in Go/TinyGo

https://github.com/hybridgroup/go-haystack

by deadprogram • 2 years ago

361 112 2 years ago

a12k• 2 years ago

Incredibly cool. I am constantly amazed by these efforts and the find my network is a really impressive thing. What’s stopped me from using anything like this ever is the fact that I’m confident that at some point Apple will either embrace this sort of piggybacking on the network and open it up more officially, or it will ban any Apple ID that has ever been associated with such things. Right now they know about this and are not commenting either way.

Hope in the future either Apple supports this more officially, or there is a way to use it with no direct link to my Apple ID or account. Until then, I am a spectator in these things.

jcutrell• 2 years ago

I think there is some positive effect potential for Apple to let this slide. The broader this network is, the more adoption it receives. P2P as a super-structure has always been a bigger than vendor problem; adoption by any means is likely an allowable tradeoff, especially since Apple doesn't have to do the work here.

Eventually they will capitalize more on the mesh density, rather than crushing the adoption now.

malmeloo9• 2 years ago

Except that custom tags like these do not require an Apple device in order to use them, so the size of the network is not increased. They only increase the load on the network. FindMy is not a P2P/mesh network; all these tags do is broadcast keys which are picked up by iDevices, which then upload those reports to Apple.

malmeloo9• 2 years ago

The process of requesting locations for a certain tag is not tied to any Apple Account. In the instructions in the README, when logging into macless haystack, you can just use a burner account.

mmooss2• 2 years ago

How is privacy protected? I wouldn't want everyone tracking my airtags.

yardstick• 2 years ago

What about the Apple account of the tag itself?

ustad• 2 years ago

Where does it say about burner account?

“You will be asked for your Apple-ID, password and your 2FA”

You mean get another apple device and setup another account?

nobunaga2• 2 years ago

Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare? I mean I understand its usefulness but can the [insert authority here] just request apple to tell them where this person is even without cellular coverage? Ive decided to move away from the apple ecosystem either way because of this but it just seems to me to be a surveillance nightmare.

rgovostes2• 2 years ago

https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...

nobunaga2• 2 years ago

Interesting thanks. I understand that its designed to be anonymous, but I guess it requires faith in Apple not complying to any forceful request from a security authority in the US to not modify it in secret.

malmeloo9• 2 years ago

I think it's worth mentioning that FindMy consists of two distinct "networks"; there's the one where other Apple devices find your stuff, and another where your devices upload their locations straight to Apple. The FindMy app combines these two networks to show the most recent location. As far as I can tell this project only uses the former network, which would require an explicit backdoor due to the way it is designed. But if you're trying to defend against government agencies, that latter network is probably more of your concern.

tgsovlerkhgsel3• 2 years ago

The system is designed specifically to make this impossible.

Your tag doesn't know its position, it simply broadcasts its own, rotating public key. Since the key changes randomly (in a way that you as the legitimate owner can predict), a third party can't easily follow the tag.

Other devices see that key, and share their position, encrypted with your tag's public key.

That makes it relatively hard to get the data, essentially impossible without forcing Apple to re-design the system and push malicious updates, which is generally considered as something that goes beyond what normal subpoenas can do.

nixpulvis• 2 years ago

Apple could be subpoenaed to look at the account holder's registered tags still, no?

reaperducer• 2 years ago

Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare?

Settings → your_name → Find My → device → toggle off

If you don't trust that this will really disable the feature, then you are going to have to think hard about every electronic device you own.

Do you trust the firmware in your Android phone? What about the non-open-source modem chip? What about the SIM card, which runs Java? Are there microphones you haven't noticed built in to your TV remote? (Many have them.) Your toaster likely has a chip in it more powerful than a networked DOS-era computer. (Mine does.) How do you know it's not joining a nearby wifi network and sending out information?

Ever since the China/iCloud thing, I don't fully trust Apple. But among big tech companies, it's certainly the one that I trust the most.

wkat42428• 2 years ago

No they can't. Apple doesn't know who has which tag. It's built with privacy in mind. I know Apple listen touts privacy while having ulterior motives but I looked at the technical design specs and this is pretty great

I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with their trackers.

andy_xor_andrew2• 2 years ago

Apple always seems to design services the way a privacy-obsessed nerd would, (if you forced said privacy nerd to design a P2P tracking network).

It's like, "oh, you want all your photos to be searchable, like 'dogs' or 'Eiffel tower'? Fine, we'll create an on-device embedding of each photo, use homomorphic encryption so you can share it with us and we can match it to its contents without even knowing what they are, then we'll send that back to your device for storage. Oh, and we'll use a relay so we don't even see your IP address while doing this, not that it matters since we can't decrypt the content anyway." It's pretty wild, like they could have easily skipped all this and only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of users would even know or care.

In fact, I was pretty annoyed that the news story from the above example was "Apple is looking at all your photos and violating your privacy", since they spent so much effort doing it the right way, in a way that respects your privacy, it makes it less likely they will bother going through the effort again

https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual...

izacus4• 2 years ago

I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with their trackers.

You are wrong and it's trivially verifiable. You can watch this years 38c3 video comparing them or read the nicely public specification.

lern_too_spel6• 2 years ago

Google's trackers are more private than Apple's to the point of stupidity. https://www.androidpolice.com/google-find-my-device-privacy-...

The PMs don't understand that they should be catering to the people purchasing the devices.

bitpush• 2 years ago

I was without until you made that swipe about Samsung and Google. Don't be a fanboy. No company is your friend.

bloopernova• 2 years ago

I hope in the future we can determine the position of beacons to within a cubic metre or less.

My wife has ADD and she loses items often. Tiles aren't very loud and are flaky, we don't have an iPhone to use Airtags. I'm too exhausted to try to master the math needed to locate Bluetooth beacons, but I wish I could. I'd love for there to be a "just add 4 small Bluetooth boards" kind of software project, but it doesn't seem to scratch that itch for most open source devs.

lolinder• 2 years ago

I also have ADHD, am also constantly losing things, and I've had success with the Pebblebee tags. I have a tag on my keys and a card in my wallet. The noise is loud enough that I can hear it on a different floor in an old home with thick brick walls.

stackskipton• 2 years ago

That’s AirTags with modernish iPhone now.

tgsovlerkhgsel3• 2 years ago

If you know that the item is inside your apartment, you only need the UWB part, which is quite orthogonal to this project.

namibj3• 2 years ago

I'm looking at setting up a trial system for 39c3 to allow hunting down tools given out from the logistics department (pallet jacks, ladders, if cheap enough pallets that get left unattended). Timeline for that is 10-11 months from now for when hardware has to exist and work.

I'd think of 2 or 3 AA batteries stuck to a small UWB PCB and stuck with tape of suitable type to the tool.

Are 10$ each doable? I don't see why not, but can't find any board akin to a Bluepill or ESP32-VROOM or PiPico containing the HF part.

The idea would be with base stations that can see each other well enough to synchronize and perform role-reversed pseudoranging to the tracker.

crazysim• 2 years ago

My partner and I are also Android only and honestly, I'm thinking about simply picking up a smashed up iPhone 11 or 12 mini and exclusively relegating it for precision finding needs with AirTags.

I don't think there will be equivalent alternatives, at least not ones with ultra wideband precision location functionality, availability, acceptable price, and robustness.

On the other hand there does seem to be some UWB support in some Android that might work with Tile's UWB: https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-enable-uwb-on-android-a...

mook• 2 years ago

My understanding is that the Motorola trackers have UWB but phone support isn't widespread yet. I haven't looked deep enough to see if that satisfied your other criteria though.

izacus4• 2 years ago

I don't think there will be equivalent alternatives, at least not ones with ultra wideband precision location functionality, availability, acceptable price, and robustness.

Why are you so confidently spreading misinformation? Samsung SmartTag+ exists for years now with this precision and capability for Samsung Android phones.

shermantanktop• 2 years ago

I’m also a misplacer-of-items. I hot glued an AirTag to the inside of my glasses cases but was frustrated at the poor signal. Turns out most cases are made of thin metal. Switched to a case with a cardboard core and it works great now.

willseth• 2 years ago

AirTags are generally loud enough to solve that problem. I wish they put the same speaker in the ATV remote.

CharlesW• 2 years ago

Not the same, but there are a few options for remote cases which support AirTags: https://www.elago.com/products/2021-apple-tv-siri-remote-r5-...

varenc2• 2 years ago

The new ATV remotes support semi-precise location finding. Not as precise as AirTag and UWB, but the Find My app will tell you as your get closer to your ATV remote. I'm assuming it just makes use of Bluetooth connection strength. Sadly only the most recent remotes seem to support this.

kbaker• 2 years ago

Hopefully the next few years will see Bluetooth Channel Sounding take off more. Promises to give every BLE device a similar (but less accurate than UWB) distance estimation feature.

https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/feature-enha...

UncleEntity• 2 years ago

I'm guessing the 'math needed' is for using stationary beacons to triangulate your location. Even Apple just sends the location of the receiving phone which is why there are stories of the cops showing up at some innocent person's house because the neighbor kid found some headphones on the bus.

Anyhoo, back in the day I was messing around with beacons and can tell you it's fairly easy to get them working. I wrote a small program to get my laptop to act like a beacon and used some random "bluetooth tracker" on my phone which would give the approximate distance to said beacon. Then it's just a matter of walking around watching the distance measurement.

varenc2• 2 years ago

AirTags and an iPhone 11 or newer should exactly solve this for you. Lets you locate AirTags to within a foot.

Rather than using Bluetooth connection strength, it uses Ultra Wideband for precision location. This works on time-flight using the speed of light delay like GPS. When you open the Find My app it very quickly knows the exact distance to the AirTag, and then as you walk around it uses your observed change in position to determine the exact direction the AirTag is from you.

It's really cool tech! You need to use the "Find" feature in the Find My app and not the "Play Sound" feature. And it requires an iPhone 11+ with an H1 Ultra Wideband chip in it. Cost is probably on-par with setting up various bluetooth boards around the house, and way more accurate. Though not as much hackery fun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband#Real-time_locat...

1vuio0pswjnm7• 2 years ago

https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-find-my-101

wkat42428• 2 years ago

Ooooh it looks like you can now use it without a Mac? That would be amazing. Because Apple trackers cost only a few euro (aftermarket ones of course)

tomr75• 2 years ago

Any recommendations?

wkat42428• 2 years ago

I just buy them in the shop. We have this shop called "Action" that sells a brand called "Fresh 'n' Rebel". They sell a pack of 3 tags for 16€. They work well. I have a bunch of them and also put some in some of my more expensive electronics so I can track them when they get stolen (with the speaker disabled of course)

CPLX• 2 years ago

Trying to parse this and can't tell. Can you use this with Apple's AirTags or do you have to create your own tracking devices?

iJohnDoe• 2 years ago

I was wondering the same thing.

deadprogram• 2 years ago

You do need to create your own tracking beacon using one of of the devices supported by the TinyGo Bluetooth package:

https://github.com/hybridgroup/go-haystack?tab=readme-ov-fil...

_-_-__-_-_-• 2 years ago

Story time. My wife and I were vacationing in Portugal last summer. She left her purse in a uber car on the way to the airport. The driver found the purse and dumped it after taking 20$ and some costume jewellery. We tracked it to an abandoned parking lot later that day using an AirTag and we ended up finding it using the Location app. We have AirTags in every bag now and we change the batteries on a schedule.

averageRoyalty2• 2 years ago

All my bags also now have airtags. I was at Sydney airport lost baggage area a few years ago waiting for a bag I'd found was there after hours of speaking to the airline and airport. Another gentlemen there told them that his item was there. They'd been evacuated from a plane in New Zealand a month before and left his iPad in the seat pocket, and had tracked it back using Find My to Sydney. He travels internationally multiple times per month and said airtags were the best thing he owned.

I've since added them into all my cars, bags and a few honeypots embedded into high value items that might be stolen.

marci• 2 years ago

How do you know it was the driver and not someone they picked up after you?

Track your devices via Apple FindMy network in Go/TinyGo

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